[SPOILERS] THE Return of the King Thread

[reapersaurus]

In the books, Sam uses the ring, but doesn't kill many orcs doing so. The orcs kill each other off. They were orcs from two different groups (some were orcs from Minas Morgul, and some were orcs from Barad-Dur) and they fight over Frodo's belongings. By the time Sam gets into the tower, all but a handful are dead, and Sam mops up. Effectively, the sequence in the movie is virtually identical to the sequence in the books...

No, the movies were quite clear about doing one's duty.

Eowyn's quest for glory is counter to the actions of the other characters. Theoden goes to battle because he believes it his responsibility to do so, and he says this. Eowyn goes to battle for selfish personal reasons.

a) You don't know everything about the movie, nor what is going on in the movie character's heads. Please stop acting like you do, unless it's based on the frames of film that were shown so far.
You know the books. That is affecting your view of the movies, as I'll show later.

b) Since you do appear to be knowledgable about the books (for example - thanks for the info about the dock (what's the name?) being an Elvish settlement for millenia), I'll ask some questions for clarification:
* Sam used the Ring to get into the Fortress? That makes a lot of sense. It explains how Sam could have gotten in, at least. That would have worked. However, they decided not to show that in the movie (I'm sure the writers had their reasons), therefore the scene DIDN'T WORK.
* If different orcs from different places were always a hairs-breadth from killing each other, than how did they mount such an awesomely united front at both Helm's Deep and Minis Tirith? It doesn't make sense that their animosity and inability to work together comes and goes at the author's whim.

c) As for heroes doing things for duty vs honor - I think we're probably saying the same thing, but using different words. You can say "Duty and Responsibility" and I say "heroes performing heroic actions in defense of what's Good." It's probably pretty close to each other.
Can't you see that me saying "Theoden was concerned over his legacy, playing the hero role, Glory, etc." is the same as you saying "(He) is concerned about whether he has done the right thing, since he will be judged in the afterlife", or are you THAT pedantic?

d) You paraphrasing Aragorn in one place in TTT does not mean that what you are espousing is actually present in the movies.
I think you've ignored where I've quoted the movie for the support of my position.

e) You contradicted yourself in what you said about Eowyn:
First, you said:

Except it would have completely voided the character development of Eowyn, who gives up the quest for glory and renown to accept responsibility and duty instead. She starts as a glory seeking adolescent and ends up as an adult. Changing the end result of her character development to adolescent wish fulfillment would destroy the power of her story arc.

Don't you see that you are using the book for the basis of this? None of that was in the movie.
Secondly, you now say:

But that would be reqarding (sp?) her for doing something that is not right. Everyone else goes to battle for duty's sake. She goes to battle for personal glory. She's in the wrong there, Theoden isn't going to reward her by talking about how she has won glory, especially since he dies thinking that no one is getting glory, only duty and death. You should review the movies, since you clearly missed the point of many characters.

This directly contradicts your previous post.
As I see it, it's YOU who is confused about what's presented in the movies, and YOU who didn't watch them close enough. But I doubt if I will help you to see that.

For my part, if you can show me _in the movies_ the support for your interpretation, than I will be open to reading it and determining whether that's the valid interpretation of the _movies'_ drama.

 

[Storm Raven]

b) Since you do appear to be knowledgable about the books (for example - thanks for the info about the dock (what's the name?) being an Elvish settlement for millenia),

The Gray Havens. It is Cirdan's fortress in Middle Earth.

I'll ask some questions for clarification:
* Sam used the Ring to get into the Fortress? That makes a lot of sense. It explains how Sam could have gotten in, at least. That would have worked. However, they decided not to show that in the movie (I'm sure the writers had their reasons), therefore the scene DIDN'T WORK.

Sam uses the rign when getting through Shelob's passages, but doesn't when going through the citadel, because by then to orcs have killed each other.

* If different orcs from different places were always a hairs-breadth from killing each other, than how did they mount such an awesomely united front at both Helm's Deep and Minis Tirith? It doesn't make sense that their animosity and inability to work together comes and goes at the author's whim.

The orcs attacking Helm's Deep were driven by Saruman's will and most were Uruk-Hai, better warriors than normal orcs. The orcs attacking Minas Tirith were led by the Witch-King and the other nazgul, who held them together. In the book, there are a couple of instances where orcs left to themselves engage in petty arguments that escalate into lethal violence. Many times they are shown as having to be driven into battle by their masters, whipped to fight in some cases.

In every case in LotR where the orcs work together, they are led by a powerful force that dirves them into battle: the orcs of Moria are ruled by the Balrog, the orcs of Isenguard are ruled by Saruman, the orcs of Minas Morgul are led by the Witch-King. But the Witch-King is away, and Sauron's eye is elsewhere when the orcs in Cirith Ungol have their altercation.

c) As for heroes doing things for duty vs honor - I think we're probably saying the same thing, but using different words. You can say "Duty and Responsibility" and I say "heroes performing heroic actions in defense of what's Good." It's probably pretty close to each other.

It depends. In the movies, it is pretty clear that doing what is right frequently means not doing the heroic thing, but rather doing the responsible thing. Faramir lets Frodo go, rather than gain glory from his father by taking the ring to him. Aragorn finally accepts kingship rather than continue to be a free man. Both Galadriel and Gandalf turn down the ring, which would allow them to increase their power (but corrput them) and oppose Sauron with their might.

Can't you see that me saying "Theoden was concerned over his legacy, playing the hero role, Glory, etc." is the same as you saying "(He) is concerned about whether he has done the right thing, since he will be judged in the afterlife", or are you THAT pedantic?

No. It is a different thing. Glory and a legacy are how you are remembered on earth. How you are judged in the afterlife is entirely different, unconnected to whether anyone remembers your deed on earth. Eowyn is clearly concerned about whether she will have songs written about her and be famous, and Aragorn (and Theoden) tell her that is not why you behave valorously. Theoden joins his fathers certain that he has done the right thing, but also certain that there will be no songs sung about him, look at his speech delivered in RotK (movie) before the Rohirrim charge. He clearly believes that they are all going to die, and there will be no glory, no songs.

d) You paraphrasing Aragorn in one place in TTT does not mean that what you are espousing is actually present in the movies.

Direct quotes from character's lines (the hero's lines no less) in the movies are not actually in the movies?

e) You contradicted yourself in what you said about Eowyn:

No. I didn't. You misunderstand what the difference between "glory" and "doing the right thing". Eowyn seeks glory, personal pride. By the end, she gives that up to be with Faramir. Note that her deeds go unremarked, and she doesn't bring them up. She has learned that responsibility is more important than gaining fame for what you have done.

I believe this will be clarified in the extended edition when the Houses of Healing sequences are restored to the movie.

 

[Hypersmurf]

4) The army of the dead. They arrive, there's a long shot of a green "glow" swarming over the bad guys for about 5 seconds, and the battle is over. Very anti-climatic for me, as battle-endings go.

"Anti-climactic. Anti-climatic means you're... against the weather."

God, Joan of Arcadia.

-Hyp.

 

[Napftor]

[/b]
In that case, you should not be surprised to find out that film adaptations of books usually contain many elements of those books. In this case, the film adaptations contains a resolution ending the story that is longer than the ending of a He-Man episode.

The ending was necessary to resolve the themes of the movie. Just because you didn't pay enough attention to understand sdoesn't make the ending "god-awful". Mostly it just makes you poorly read.

It is shown in the movies that Gandalf has power over men's hearts. But I think your main quibble is that you have a D&D inspired view of what a "wizard" should do. I expect you think he should have been flinging fireballs and casting "power word, kill".

Given that you (by your own admission), haven't read the LotR books, exactly how do you come to the conclusion that the Dragonlance books are more "user friendly"? I would say that the Dragonlance books are more juvenile and less interesting overall, since they are basically pulp fantasy at best. But I don't think they are any more "user friendly" so long as you are literate enough to read without moving your lips.
[/b]
Given that the ringwraiths were introduced as the nazgul (note, nazgul is both plural and singular, there is no word such as nazguls), it seems odd that you didn't note this. When something is explicitly introduced and described with a particular name, I generally think one would remember what that name is attached to.

*sigh*
Your typical "rabid fanboy" reaction to my review and questions is why I normally don't post in these threads. Just because I didn't rate it a 10 does not mean you get to ridicule my tastes.

 

[barsoomcore]

"Anti-climactic. Anti-climatic means you're... against the weather."

God, Joan of Arcadia.

-Hyp.

It's snowing in Vancouver. Yer darn tooting I'm against the weather.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's snowing in Vancouver. Yer darn tooting I'm against the weather.

Weird - it's hot and sunny here. Just your fairly average summer day.



-Hyp.

 

[Bass Puppet]

(Bass Puppet sits patiently as he watches this informative yet, trainwreck of a thread)

"Awe man, I'm all out of popcorn...."

...(walks into the next room)...
.
.
....(returns with a replenished tub and sits back down)

"....please continue."

 

[barsoomcore]

Yo, Bass Puppet. You going to eat all that?

*sits next to BP and starts to work on the popcorn*

"Y'know, I can't believe the effects in that reapersaurus post. Didn't anyone notice the crappy rendering? And what about those lame crane shots in Storm Raven's post? Sheesh."

 

[Bass Puppet]

"You can see the strings!!"


(walks out demanding a refund)

 

[reapersaurus]

"Y'know, I can't believe the effects in that reapersaurus post. Didn't anyone notice the crappy rendering?

HEY!
Can I help it if the effects company (Ad HominFX) backed out of the post after taking my money, leaving me with simple quotes proving my points, unfestooned with lurid prose implying my opponent's lack of intelligence?