[SPOILERS] THE Return of the King Thread

[WizarDru]

I think that one important thing was overlooked, as to WHO 'The Man' was....

'The Man' is one of the most careful individuals I've ever known of. He works behind the scenes. He avoids public appearance. He stays below the palantir (radar), yet, cannot be harmed by any of the super powerful magics known in Middle Earth.

Several individuals have met him, yet falied to realize that HE is 'The Man'. No one suspects.

Tom Bombadil. C'mon guys, how could you have NOT figured THAT out !!??

Feh. Bombadil's just a immortal stoner who hangs out with his old lady. He grows the weed, sure...but he's not the Man. He's not connected enough. He just shils his stuff through one of the Man's agents in Bree.

I'll tell you who the Man is. Celeborn. You know..."Mr. Galadriel". Always there, but always in the background. In control of a whole forest, and when his old lady sails into the West to escape prosecution, he expands his drug empire all the way to the Mirkwood, baby. And all while staying out of the way of the new King.

Everyone else?

Lackeys, baby, lackeys.

 

[demiurge1138]

I really don't think Bombadil is "The Man". I'll agree to Celeborn, though. But the truth about Tom Bombadil is darker than even Adlon suspects...

The Truth About Tom Bombadil

Demiurge out.

 

[Bass Puppet]

ok, I went and saw it for the 2nd time yesterday. I absolutely loved it better the 2nd time. The acting was better than the first two installments, the special effecst were tighter (especially for legolas), the score rounded out nicely with all three movie scores. A couple of things I didn't understand and maybe some of you intelligent people can clearify for me. Now understand, I haven't read the books in 24 years, and I've been waiting to see all three movies before I re-read them again and some of these questions might just be movie related so be gentle with me. (looks at previous posts again).

1. Why exactly do the hobbits (in particular Bilbo and Frodo) have a resistance towards the ring? Weren't Deagol and Smeagol Hobbits too? If so, why didn't the ring have the same effect? If it betrayed Isiludul and abandoned Gollum, why didn't it abandon Bilbo or Frodo? Why did it wait till Frodo was at Mt Doom to finally turn him?

2. Why didn't Arwen and Elrond talk in Elvish? Even though it's a small gripe, it just bugs me that they didn't use it enough, I mean, I would have liked to see the orcs speaking orc (goblins speaking goblins, etc.) instead of a bad english dialect with a lisp. I guess, it just would have been more realistic too speak to each other in their natural tongue, but I don't remember english being the universal language amonst all creatures on Middle Earth. To man, but that's all I remember.

3. Why is Sarumans Plantir at the base of Isengard? I know, this part was cut from the movie and it will be in EE, but from what they left us was Galdalf telling Treabeard that Saruman is no longer a threat (in the background you can see several Ent's beating on the base of Isengard). I would have thought that they would have done a better job at explaining this since they cut out a scene that was intended for TTT.

Thanks

-Cain

 

[kengar]

ok, I went and saw it for the 2nd time yesterday. I absolutely loved it better the 2nd time. The acting was better than the first two installments, the special effecst were tighter (especially for legolas), the score rounded out nicely with all three movie scores. A couple of things I didn't understand and maybe some of you intelligent people can clearify for me. Now understand, I haven't read the books in 24 years, and I've been waiting to see all three movies before I re-read them again and some of these questions might just be movie related so be gentle with me. (looks at previous posts again).

1. Why exactly do the hobbits (in particular Bilbo and Frodo) have a resistance towards the ring? Weren't Deagol and Smeagol Hobbits too? If so, why didn't the ring have the same effect? If it betrayed Isiludul and abandoned Gollum, why didn't it abandon Bilbo or Frodo? Why did it wait till Frodo was at Mt Doom to finally turn him?

This is a trickier question than it might first seem. I can give you my resaoning based upon personal perception after having seen the movies and read the books many times (only twice for ROTK film though ). As far as Bilbo is concerned, Sauron wasn't calling to the Ring for most of the time that Bilbo had it. Nor was he -at that point- aware of hobbits or the Shire. When Frodo got the Ring, things were already in motion: Gollum's capture in Mordor, Sauron gathering his strength, etc.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Frodo & Bilbo were essentially "good" people. They not only were harder to corrupt because of their decent natures, but they also weren't ambitous or puissant the way a Gandalf or Boromir might be. They never tried to do anything particularly powerful with Ring, so its corrupting influence had a harder time taking hold. Smeagol was a sneaky so-and-so before he ever got the Ring, so he was more easily corrupted. In the books, Deagol really didn't put up much of a fight, Smeagol just killed him and took the Ring. In the end, though, the Ring finally managed to beat down Frodo's resistance and bend him to its will.

2. Why didn't Arwen and Elrond talk in Elvish? Even though it's a small gripe, it just bugs me that they didn't use it enough, I mean, I would have liked to see the orcs speaking orc (goblins speaking goblins, etc.) instead of a bad english dialect with a lisp. I guess, it just would have been more realistic too speak to each other in their natural tongue, but I don't remember english being the universal language amonst all creatures on Middle Earth. To man, but that's all I remember.

There is mention that many of the orcs are from different tribes/regions and therefore speak Westron (Common) to one another when mixed together. As far as the elves, I agree that them speaking "human" to each other was slightly silly, but perhaps PJ didn't want certain scenes' poignancy to be diluted by the audience having to reading subtitles. Also, Elvish is not a "complete" languages, iirc. The limits of grammar and vocabulary might have limited dialogue options. I'm no expert on Sindarin/Quenya, though.

3. Why is Sarumans Plantir at the base of Isengard? I know, this part was cut from the movie and it will be in EE, but from what they left us was Galdalf telling Treabeard that Saruman is no longer a threat (in the background you can see several Ent's beating on the base of Isengard). I would have thought that they would have done a better job at explaining this since they cut out a scene that was intended for TTT.

In the books (and I assume the EE) Gandalf parleys with Saruman in an attempt to bring him back to the good side and help them v. Sauron. Wormtongue throws the palantir out the window (not realizing what it is) at Gandalf. In the theatre, I think what we see is the begnning and very end of that sequence. Minus the conversation and the throw.

 

[Shadowdancer]

Earlier in this thread, there was some debate as to Eowyn's reasons for wanting to enter battle. Now, I haven't read "Lord of the Rings" completely -- I've read "Fellowship" and the first half of "Two Towers" -- so I'm just speaking about the movies.

From the movies, I don't get the impression that Eowyn is a glory hound who wants to go to war to seek honor and acclaim. And I don't understand where people get that from. I saw RotK last night for the second time, and paid particular attention to all of Eowyn's scenes. And I've watched TTT several times, in the theater and on DVD.

The impression I get from Eowyn is not that she is seeking glory. She just wants an opportunity to do her duty, and fight as she has been trained to do. She has been trained to use a sword, just like a man, so she feels she should be allowed to go to war and fight, just like a man -- no more, no less.

She fears being trapped into a traditional female role, someone who stays at home cooking and cleaning and sewing -- things she apparently hasn't had much training in, if you've seen TTT EE. Or being married off to some man who won't allow her to take up arms as she has been trained to do, or who will not treat her as an equal.

She reminds me of the female pilots in the Navy and Air Force who for years fought to be allowed to fly combat missions. They had received the same training as male pilots, why couldn't they fly the same missions? They didn't want special treatment -- they just wanted equal treatment. Now they are allowed to fly any mission a male pilot is allowed to fly. They have proven in combat missions that different genitalia and/or a one chromosome difference in DNA doesn't make someone a better pilot.

Eowyn reminds me of a backup athlete on a sports team. She doesn't necessarily want to be a star, she just wants to get into the game and prove she can contribute. "Put me in, Coach. I'm ready to play."

 

[fba827]

Earlier in this thread, there was some debate as to Eowyn's reasons for wanting to enter battle. Now, I haven't read "Lord of the Rings" completely -- I've read "Fellowship" and the first half of "Two Towers" -- so I'm just speaking about the movies.

<snip>

Eowyn reminds me of a backup athlete on a sports team. She doesn't necessarily want to be a star, she just wants to get into the game and prove she can contribute. "Put me in, Coach. I'm ready to play."

(Also just speaking with the movies as a reference)

I would agree with almost all that was said except for the one thing (bolded above for reference)...

I don't think she is trying to prove that she can contribute. I thin kshe just wanted to contribute, plain and simple -- no effort to prove that she can, she just wanted to.

But perhaps I am focusing too much on her one speech at the night before the fight. The King says that the hobbit shouldn't be cnouraged to fight and Eowyn goes into a nice quote about why shouldn't he be allowed to fight and help those he considers friends for the saftey of those he loves (or something along those lines -- that's far from an exact quote on my part) -- my point is though, I take that to be her own motivation and justification as well. And since they won't knowingly let her contribute, she found a way ..

again, not disagreeing with the statement as a whole and just felt like sharing my two cents on the topic.

 

[Storm Raven]

From the movies, I don't get the impression that Eowyn is a glory hound who wants to go to war to seek honor and acclaim. And I don't understand where people get that from.

I get the impression that she is after glory because she says she is after glory. There are a couple of speeches (like the "I fear a cage" speech, and her exchange with Aragorn in Helm's Deep) where she says "I want to fight and get glory with the boys".

 

[Asmo]

Time for a slight highjack:
I was thinking about one thing from the film:the departure from the Grey Havens. There´s a scene in a couch where Bilbo is leaning on Frodos shoulder and he´s talking about something (can´t remember now) and he´s looking really OLD. When did he get so old? When Frodo and the party meet him in Rivendell he looks about the same, but suddenly a couple of years later he looks incredible old. What´s up with that (It´s even more strange if you read the books and know that 17 (?) years has passed from the first birthday party and Rivendell)?

Asmo

 

[barsoomcore]

He no longer has the Ring, which has been artificially sustaining him all these years. Remember when Gandalf first comes to Bag End in Fellowship and he squints at Bilbo and says in a wondering tone, "You haven't aged a day..." ?

And then he's noticeably older and weaker when Frodo meets him in Rivendell -- he no longer has the Ring and so he's starting to age.

That's because of the Ring. Also why Gollum is still alive, hundreds of years after he found the ring. In Gollum's case, he had it for so long he's probably immortal so long as the Ring itself endures.

It's certainly not clear in the movies, for sure, but I think PJ did a pretty good job of giving us the critical info.

In any case, it's because he's been deprived of the Ring.

 

[Shadowdancer]

[/b]

I get the impression that she is after glory because she says she is after glory. There are a couple of speeches (like the "I fear a cage" speech, and her exchange with Aragorn in Helm's Deep) where she says "I want to fight and get glory with the boys".

She never says she is after glory.

In the first speech mentioned, Aragorn asks her what she fears. Eowyn anwers "A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them. And all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire."

Valor is not the same as glory.

Later, at Helm's Deep, she is upset about having to go to the cave with those who can't fight. She says, "There is no renown in that." To which Aragorn says, "There may yet come a time for valor without renown," meaning she might have to fight the Urik-hai if they break through the defenses and reach the caves.

Renown is the same as glory, but she doesn't say she is seeking it. It is implied, yet it is also understandable -- to me, at least -- that she is upset, and might be saying something she doesn't truly mean.

There are three ways to know someone, whether they are a real person or a fictional character: by what they say, by what others say about them, and by what they do. On only one occassion does Eowyn mention "renown" in connection with being allowed to fight. No one in any of the movies ever says anything along the lines of "That Eowyn -- she's a glory hound" or "She only wants to fight so she can grab some glory for herself." And none of her actions in the movies indicate she is a glory hound. There's just one mention of renown, made in the heat of the moment, when she is upset.

To me, that's not enough to brand her as someone interested only in obtaining glory for herself.