**SPOLIER** -Blinded by Utreshimon-Looking for some answers please

[cezmail]

Hi there, in the RTTOEE pbem game I am in, we have just encountered this beastie for the first time. I am not looking for spoilers, just some rule clarifications if you would.

1) The DM says that when Utreshimon is hovering, there is no save to the blinding effect of the debris while your in the radius,. Is this true? If not, can you post a rule link that contradicts his interpretation? If there is no save, is this not a powerful weapon for a creature, which in Utreshimon's case is a 90 foot radius?

2) If not save, what would you think is the DC for a listen check to tell where Utreshimon is? The DM thinks it should be 24, which I personally feel a too high. Any input or rule links again would be appreciated.

I am not trying to whine, just curious if I am off base here. Whatever is posted here I will give to the DM to look over and see if he will change his mind. If not,. well I may at least have some answers for myself.

Might be a mute case anyway, as my character is the one that pissed off Utreshimon and may well be going down soon. ooc, never, EVER talk back and insult the Dragon while it is in combat with you and seems to LIKE you.

But then Bandark is an Uthgardt.

 

[Zenon]

Re: Blinded by Utreshimon-Looking for some answers please

1) The DM says that when Utreshimon is hovering, there is no save to the blinding effect of the debris while your in the radius,. Is this true? If not, can you post a rule link that contradicts his interpretation? If there is no save, is this not a powerful weapon for a creature, which in Utreshimon's case is a 90 foot radius?

He is correct. Per the SRD (since I don't have an MM handy):

Hover: When flying, a dragon can halt its forward motion and hover in place, fly straight down, or fly straight up regardless of its maneuverability. While hovering, it can attack with its bite and all four feet (its hind feet deal claw damage) and can make tail slap attacks if normally allowed to do so. If it can make a tail sweep, it can do so while hovering but can make no other attacks. A hovering dragon cannot make wing attacks. It can use its breath weapon instead of making physical attacks. If a dragon hovers close to the ground in an area with lots of loose debris, the draft from its wings creates a hemispherical cloud with a radius of 30 feet x the dragon’s age category. The winds so generated can snuff torches, small campfires, exposed lanterns, and other small, open flames of nonmagical origin. The cloud obscures vision, and creatures caught within are blinded while inside and for 1 round after emerging. Those caught in the cloud must succeed at a Concentration check (DC 10 + 1/2 dragon’s HD) to cast a spell.

IIRC, "Big U" is an age category 3, so 90'cloud. Also, remember a Dragon's Blindsight can easily see through the cloud since it doesn't enclose him.....

2) If not save, what would you think is the DC for a listen check to tell where Utreshimon is? The DM thinks it should be 24, which I personally feel a too high. Any input or rule links again would be appreciated.

Well, per the Enviroment section in the SRD:

Strong Wind: Gusts that automatically extinguish unprotected flames (candles, torches, and the like). Such gusts impose a –2 penalty to ranged attacks and to Listen checks.

That kind of looks like it duplicates the winds produced by Hover, so -2 to Listen checks right there. Since locating an Invisible creature by sound is described in the DMG, I'd suggest checking there for the DC's and details. Remember the -1 per 10' away to Listen checks. If "Big U" was attempting a Move Silenty roll (or even if he wasn't), I guess it is possible for it to be that high.

Sorry, I think your PBEM DM is correct.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Re: Blinded by Utreshimon-Looking for some answers please

Is this true? If not, can you post a rule link that contradicts his interpretation?

He is DM! His word is law!

Save or die at DC 179, cezmail. Save or die!

 

[HeavyG]

I'm afraid that's right.

Except for the listen DC, though. I don't think it's possible to move silently while flying (with wings anyway). Or at least it shouldn't in this instance since it is purposefully trying to create great winds which isn't compatible with trying to be silent.

So the DC should be 0+2(wind)+1 per 10 feet distance, modified with the amount of combat noises going on. But since the dragon is probably in the air and not engaged in hand-to-hand, that last modifier shouldn't be too big. Sorry, don't have my DMG to check it out though.

As to the debris hemisphere, although this is by the rules, it is a pretty ridiculous rule. That dragon is medium-sized and there's no way it should be able to displace so much air. Debris hemisphere radius should be based on the dragon's size category, IMO.

 

[cezmail]

Re: Re: Blinded by Utreshimon-Looking for some answers please

Thanks Zenon for your reply and your quotes from the SRD,. I did have that, just not handy. I will still say, just for myself, that there should be a save for the blinding done by hover, but that is just a personal opinion. I have told the DM my views, but at all times I obey his rulings, even when I disagree.


Your explanation about winds was something I did not think of, so yeah, guess the dc is on site well enough, Looks like we may be cooked some here, or at least my own PC, but such is the life of a character. Makes me wish I had taken blind fighting or have scent. ( He is right next to me biting away. )

Again, thanks for the quick answer.

He is correct. Per the SRD (since I don't have an MM handy):



IIRC, "Big U" is an age category 3, so 90'cloud. Also, remember a Dragon's Blindsight can easily see through the cloud since it doesn't enclose him.....




Well, per the Enviroment section in the SRD:



That kind of looks like it duplicates the winds produced by Hover, so -2 to Listen checks right there. Since locating an Invisible creature by sound is described in the DMG, I'd suggest checking there for the DC's and details. Remember the -1 per 10' away to Listen checks. If "Big U" was attempting a Move Silenty roll (or even if he wasn't), I guess it is possible for it to be that high.

Sorry, I think your PBEM DM is correct.

 

[cezmail]

Re: Re: Blinded by Utreshimon-Looking for some answers please

Granted, DM is GOD, arbieter, and all around someone to bow and kowtow to. Even when he is wrong, Maybe even especially when he is wrong.

And as for that CD, you might be a little off. I think the likelihood of my dying, or at least bandark, is VERY high. He survived, by a DM's generous random ruling, Chantrilon's death attack, so guess I am about to get another death touch, aka Dragon Bite.

He is DM! His word is law!

Save or die at DC 179, cezmail. Save or die!

 

[cezmail]

Well like I said, I personally feel that there should be a saving throw, of some kind, for the blinding cloud but by the rules as they are, looks like we are screwed. The listen DC, well I think it should still be up there, say around 10-15. But he will rule as he sees fit. I will send him the link to this thread, if he has not seen it already, and allow him to modify as he may.

Thanks HeavyG for the input. It was appreciated.

I'm afraid that's right.

Except for the listen DC, though. I don't think it's possible to move silently while flying (with wings anyway). Or at least it shouldn't in this instance since it is purposefully trying to create great winds which isn't compatible with trying to be silent.

So the DC should be 0+2(wind)+1 per 10 feet distance, modified with the amount of combat noises going on. But since the dragon is probably in the air and not engaged in hand-to-hand, that last modifier shouldn't be too big. Sorry, don't have my DMG to check it out though.

As to the debris hemisphere, although this is by the rules, it is a pretty ridiculous rule. That dragon is medium-sized and there's no way it should be able to displace so much air. Debris hemisphere radius should be based on the dragon's size category, IMO.

 

[HeavyG]

Re: Re: Re: Blinded by Utreshimon-Looking for some answers please

( He is right next to me biting away. )

There's one good point in your favor : If it attacks you, you'll automatically know where the attack came from.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

And here we have the reason why my party stuck him to the ground with generous application of tanglefoot bags.

Things then went much better than they otherwise might have.

 

[Samnell]

Back, rebel player, back!

Since everybody agrees with my rules call on the hover (though I'm considering a possible houserule for it in later combats, blind and no save is pretty tough) I'll just explain the Listen DC.

The PCs were trying to locate the dragon to attack it, so they needed the exact five foot square. The dragon can't move silently while flying (cause it's generating a great big freakin' windstorm) and it's in combat too. So I set the base DC at 0.

Then I went to my DMG and checked up on finding invisible creatures. There I learned (DMG p 78) that it's practically impossible to pinpoint an invisible creature, either with spot or listen, this way. One must beat the DC by 20 to do so. So our DC to pinpoint Big U is 0 + 20 = 20.

Beyond this we get into distance modifiers. I didn't think to include a mod for the winds throwing sound all over the place.

I'm sure the listen vs. invisibility rules are in the SRD somewhere, but I don't have the link on hand.

Tanglefoot bags are a good idea, Dr. Rictus. Nobody in the party has any that I know of, though.