Spontaneous Metamagic Variant

[Thanee]

THIS thread in the rules forum about spontaneous metamagic got me thinking, how a balanced (IMHO ) system could look like, which would give a bit more benefit to metamagic, make it more useful for prepared casters, but not favor prepared casters over spontaneous casters.

How about this (based on the UA daily uses spontaneous metamagic variant)?

Metamagic feats can be applied spontaneously a number of times per day, even for prepared casters, without the need for a higher spell slot for the metamagicked spell. This replaced their standard usage. All the necessary decisions are made during the casting of the spell. There is no increase in casting time for spontaneous casters anymore and they can use Quicken Spell just fine. When using variable metamagic feats, like Heighten Spell or Fortify Spell, the caster can set the spell level modifier as needed; there is usually no reason not to set it at the maximum possible for the spell in question, but in some cases, especially when applying multiple metamagic feats (see below), it might be necessary to choose a lower modifier to apply.

Every metamagic feat can be used a specified number of times per day, which depends on the modifier, which the metamagic in question applies to the spell level normally (i.e. +2 for Empower Spell).

Spontaneous casters (Clerics and Druids or other classes which normally prepare spells, but also have limited spontaneous casting ability (also from feats like Spontaneous Healer), do not qualify, unless they have levels in a (real) spontaneous spellcasting class (i.e. Bard, Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman)) gain additional (+50% roughly) daily uses; these additional uses can only be applied to spells cast spontaneously, if they can cast both prepared and spontaneous spells. Variable modifier feats, like Heighten Spell or Fortify Spell are assumed to be in the "+2 to +3" spell level modifier category to obtain their daily uses.

+6 to ** -- 1/day (+1/day for spontaneous casters)
+4 to +5 -- 2/day (+1/day for spontaneous casters)
+2 to +3 -- 3/day (+2/day for spontaneous casters)
+0 to +1 -- 6/day (+3/day for spontaneous casters)

The maximum spell level, which the metamagic can be applied to is equal to the highest available spell level (i.e. 5th for a 9th level wizard) minus a number of levels equal to the modifier normally applied by the metamagic in question (i.e. -2 levels for Empower Spell). Thus, a 9th level wizard could empower a 3rd level spell, but not a 4th level spell.

If multiple different metamagic feats are applied to the same spell, the sum of the spell level modifiers is used instead to obtain the maximum spell level, which the feats can be applied to; however, there is a discount (applied to this sum of modifiers) on using multiple metamagic feats equal to -1 for every metamagic feat beyond the first, with at least a +1 spell level modifier (+0 modifier feats do not figure in at all to derive this discount on multiple metamagic feats). For example, a 9th level wizard would be able to cast an energy affinity (+0), silent (+1), still (+1 -1 discount), empowered (+2 -1 discount), maximized (+3 -1 discount) 1st level spell, if the character has all those feats.

Metamagic rods work in exactly the same way (most importantly have the same spell level limit), but the number of uses is always 3/day as normal, since the cost already covers the different spell level modifiers, and only one metamagic rod can be used at a time.

Prestige class abilities, like the Instant Metamagic ability of the Incantatrix, or the Sudden Metamagic feats remain unchanged and can still be applied to even the highest spell levels. When applied to an already metamagicked spell, work out the sum and the discount for applying multiple metamagic feats (see above) as normal without taking these into consideration; they are applied seperately and in addition to whatever metamagic feats are already used during the spellcasting. The much lower number of daily uses and the higher cost to obtain these abilities makes up for this advantage.

So, what do you think about this?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

Far too complicated for my taste...

I would definitely remove the spell slot "discount" when using multiple mm feats. I cannot say it's too powerful, but definitely I don't fully trust it.

I think the idea of spontaneous casters being able to use the option more often is quite a must, but if I were to try out this system I would start with 1/day only (eventually 2/day for spontaneous casters).

Keeping the number of daily uses the same for all mm feats is preferable to me, instead of giving the more powerful feats less uses - although it makes sense. However, for +0 mm feats I could go exactly the opposite way and give no daily limit, which IOW would make them regular feats instead of mm.

 

[Thanee]

Far too complicated for my taste...

That's just the writeup, the rules are fairly simple.

I think the idea of spontaneous casters being able to use the option more often is quite a must, but if I were to try out this system I would start with 1/day only (eventually 2/day for spontaneous casters).

If you make it 1/day, you must allow to apply them to every spell level, like the Sudden Metamagic feats, or metamagic will be incredibly weak. OTOH, allowing to apply them to every spell level pushes them into the realms of brokeness. I'm trying to remove exactly that (i.e. from the metamagic rods), except for the much more limited abilities mentioned in the end.

Keeping the number of daily uses the same for all mm feats is preferable to me, instead of giving the more powerful feats less uses - although it makes sense.

I prefer when it makes sense.

It's not hard to write down the number of daily uses for each (all two or three ) feats, really.

However, for +0 mm feats I could go exactly the opposite way and give no daily limit, which IOW would make them regular feats instead of mm.

Thought about that, too, but didn't want to break from the general system.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

If you make it 1/day, you must allow to apply them to every spell level, like the Sudden Metamagic feats, or metamagic will be incredibly weak.

Heh, they'll still be better than now

Since this is going to be "for free", I'd start by keeping the number very low. Then you could always make another feat which gives more uses per day.

IMHO the two benefits of (1) not increasing the slot level and (2) no need to prepare, are very huge benefits. The limitation on the max spell level you can use the feat is not exactly a limitation, because you have the same limit when preparing those spells, it's more a clarification that spontaneous metamagic doesn't give you another benefit of (3) going over your max spell level.

Clearly it's not easy to give benefit (2) alone, but if you at least would consider a variant by which you have to "burn" another slot of a level equal to the mm increase, then I could accept more daily uses

OTOH, allowing to apply them to every spell level pushes them into the realms of brokeness. I'm trying to remove exactly that (i.e. from the metamagic rods), except for the much more limited abilities mentioned in the end.

Ok, let's forget about that then Effectively, it is not a good idea for several existing +0 mm feats.

 

[Thanee]

Heh, they'll still be better than now

That's the whole point.

80% of the metamagic feats out there are just plain weak.

And metamagic rods become weaker than now, thus making the feats preferable choices over the rods, especially for wizards. Right now, there is almost no reason for a wizard to pick the feat over the rod (even if it is read in the more strict way, that it has to be used during preparation, not during casting).

Also, it makes the weaker of the feats a lot better. Silent and Still Spell become decent feat choices that way, I think, even for a wizard who normally has almost no use for them, especially if you have other metamagic feats as well, since then you can apply them for free in conjunction thanks to the discount rule.

About the discount... I don't really see a problem there, not even with Empower + Maximize (which would be a total of +4 instead of +5). You're in most cases better off casting an empowered or maximized spell of a higher level, instead of a weaker spell with both metamagics applied.

Altho, it is not something I'm terribly affixed to, I just think it limits the quite heavy diminishing returns of stacked metamagic a bit. It might get too good with Improved Metamagic, havn't put much thought into this combination. Anyways, that part could be easily removed without affecting the remainder of the house rule.


The biggest impact (apart from spontaneous application for prepared casters) certainly is, that you don't need higher level spell slots to apply the metamagic. This makes the lower level spells more useful than they are now, while retaining the power of the high level slots. Honestly, a metamagicked spell cannot normally compete with a spell of the modified spell level. That's one of the primary reasons, that wizards do not use metamagic much (other than the rods), since they can (in most cases) simply pick up a higher level spell to achieve what they are looking for. Therefore only Quicken Spell is really good for wizards, as it adds something they cannot achieve that way, and Silent Spell is somewhat useful, if they want to prepare an emergency spell to get out of really tight situations (i.e. Pin, or Grapple+Silence).

Since this is going to be "for free", I'd start by keeping the number very low.

Well, might consider to lower the number of uses per day slightly (put up alternate numbers above), but 1/day is clearly not enough. Who would waste a feat on an Empower 1/day useable on your 3rd highest spell level only?

Bye
Thanee

 

[ARandomGod]

I like it overall.

I don't think that there would be an issue with the discount for multiple metamagic uses, it seems balanced, but that's the only thing there that I think might want to be watched in some game testing to make sure it's not a problem.

But in general I think it feels pretty good.

 

[Ferret]

I like it. I dunno about it being fair but the numbers could be tweeked.


What about being able to use up a spell-per-day for some. So if you empower shocking grasp you use up two (or more) 1st level spells. Just an idea, no thought of balance has been made.

 

[Thanee]

That's the other variant in UA, where you use additional spell slots, but have no fixed uses/day.

But I was only going from the first here.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Technik4]

80% of the metamagic feats out there are just plain weak.

Which metamagic feats are particularly weak exactly? I mean, I agree that metamagic is weaker for preparation casters in general, but then I feel that *should* be true. However, I do not think that metamagic feats are weak in general (however my evaluation mostly includes the phb 3.5 feats).

My favorites are: Silent, Still, Empower, Maximize. I have seen Extended, Widened, Persistent, Elemental Substitution, and a couple others used to good effect (ie- roughly a feat's worth of power, equivalent to a rogue using his dodge, weapon finesse, and skill focus (use magic device) or a fighter using power attack, weapon focus, and weapon specialization feats).

I feel a good way to preserve metamagic would be to add a clause that does not raise the spell level (for preparation casters) and does not make the metamagic take longer (for spontaneous casters). I would allow them to use metamagic in this improved way if they took a feat, say Improved Metamagic that looked like this:

Improved Metamagic [General]
You have learned to use metamagic more efficiently.
Prerequisite: Caster Level 5+, one metamagic feat
Benefit: For preparation-based casters (Clerics, Druids, Wizards, etc) you may prepare some spells with metamagic feats without raising the spell level. For a number of points equal to your spellcasting attribute's bonus (Wisdom for Clerics and Druids, Intelligence for Wizards) you may apply metamagic feats without raising the level. The restriction is that you may only use 1 point towards your highest spell level, 2 points towards your next highest level, and so on.

For instance, a 6th level wizard with the Silent Spell, Empower Spell, and Maximize Spell Feats and an 18 intelligence may prepare a Silent Fireball as a 3rd level spell, an empowered Melf's Acid Arrow as a second level spell, and a Silent Magic Missile as a first level spell. Alternately he could prepare a Silent Invisibility and a Maximized Magic Missile. He can still use the feats in the normal manner, preparing an Empowered Magic Missile as a third level spell.

For Spontaneous casters you may add metamagic feats without increasing the casting time using the same scale.

A 6th level sorcerer with the same feats and an 18 charisma could cast a Silent Fireball, an Empowered Melf's Acid Arrow, or a Maximized Magic Missile as a standard action (instead of a full-round action). Alternately if the sorcerer knew the Still Spell Feat she could cast a Still and Silent Alter Self twice (as standard actions).

Normal: Using metamagic feats increases the spell-level for preperation based casters and increases the casting time for spontaneous casters.

It raises my hackles whenever preperation-based casters (especially Wizards) get to use metamagic spontaneously. Personally I think having a more useful spell-casting attribute, bonus feats, and always getting their spells a level earlier than sorcerers would be enough that sorcerers (and other spontaneous casters) can keep their ...spontaneity.

Technik

 

[Thanee]

Well, it's not like this is a change to the core rules. It's a variant similar to the one officially presented in the UA, which I believe is not very balanced (since it gives the same benefit to both types of casters and no extra benefit to spontaneous casters).

The big problem with metamagic is, that for prepared casters most of the feats are never worth it (see above explanation), since they can learn higher level spells instead.

Quicken is the biggest exception here. Even Empower/Maximize aren't particularily hot for a wizard (i.e. empowered Fireball is nice, but Firebrand is nice, too - a sorcerer cannot afford learning all those spells, but a wizard can), tho it is one of the best metamagic feats all around. Silent Spell is necessary only for Dimension Door and other than that also quite pointless for a wizard as is Still Spell. Still Spell for the sorcerer? Don't really know what that would be good for, maybe in a highly specialized situation, but then again, you don't have feats to waste for such occasions, really.

For a sorcerer some more of the feats are of good use, since they can apply them spontaneously, of course, and because it makes their lower level spells known somewhat useful later on, so they don't have to relearn everything every couple levels, like a wizard most certainly does.

I agree, that this spontanity is an advantage for the sorcerer, which is already well-covered (something they do not really address in UA), but I think giving them more uses out of those feats per day would also give them a similar advantage, while giving wizards more choice in useful feats, which in turn helps to create more diversity among the classes.

However, I feel, that without spontanity, metamagic becomes too unwieldy to be of much use, and it doesn't exactly feel right, that wizards are so terribly bad at using metamagic as they are now. It certainly doesn't feel right how metamagic rods are better than learned feats for wizards.

Bye
Thanee