Spring Attack allows Movement+Attack as single Attack action?

[Jack of Shadows]

It should be worded:

"As a full round action, you can declare a creature you wish to spring attack. You may move up to your base speed and make one melee attack against that creature, and then may move after your attack if you have not yet traveled your full base speed this round. For this round, you do not incur attacks of opportunity for moving through spaces threatened by your target."

Or perhaps, to make things even easier:

Dodge
Prereq: Dex 13
Benefit: On your turn as a free action you may declare a dodge target. For this turn you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC against the target, and you do not incur attacks of opportunity for moving through spaces threatened by your target.

You can't do that.

You've just completely replaced the Tumble skill with a feat.

Jack

 

[king_ghidorah]

Maybe the PHB3.5 text is different, but I've got some players interpreting the SRD RAW as Spring Attack including free movement as part of a Standard Action used for an attack action. This leaves an additional Move Action available.

That is totally contrary to the way we've been running it for 5 years.
Is the PHB text different?
How are people ruling on this?

The statement should be the same, allowing movement before and after, not move actions.

Doug

 

[Hypersmurf]

Our current campaign that Jody is running is going to house rule spring attack to use the 3.0 mechanic.

Spring Attack didn't change very much in the conversion, and not at all in that respect.

It's the standard action that changed.

-Hyp.

 

[jeffhartsell]

Spring Attack didn't change very much in the conversion, and not at all in that respect.

It's the standard action that changed.

-Hyp.

Correct. But since the wording for spring attack did not change much, it works much differently since movement and standard actions became more distinct. The spring attack rule as written in 3.5, as you said, means that you can ME plus move/attack/move.

Either the designers knew the effect of changes (overrun was clarified and rideby attack is specific about a charge and double moving) and opted not to change spring attack thus it works differently or it was a conversion error. Could be either, most likely the latter. But being literal a house rule is needed to make spring attack work like it did in 3.0.

Clarified HR Version
SPRING ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When moving on the ground, you can take a move action (including
jumping or tumbling) and another standard action at any point during the
move. You cannot take a second move action during a round when you make
a spring attack. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of
opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks
of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can't use this
feat if you are wearing heavy armor. You must move at least 5 feet both
before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of
Spring Attack.
Normal: Without this feat, you can only take a standard action either
before or after your move.
Special: A fighter may select Spring Attack as one of his fighter bonus
feats.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Clarified HR Version

You're deliberately allowing Spring Attack to be used with ranged attacks, spellcasting, etc, etc? And deliberately disallowing the use of the Hustle psionic power (for example)?

-Hyp.

 

[jeffhartsell]

You're deliberately allowing Spring Attack to be used with ranged attacks, spellcasting, etc, etc? And deliberately disallowing the use of the Hustle psionic power (for example)?

-Hyp.

Ah. good point. Not sure how to clarify the standard action. Need to think about it some more My preference would be to leave spring attack "as is" and allow a ME plus the move/attack/move but that is not going to happen. So, I'm trying to reword the feat to be similar using 3.5 wording.

Maybe...

Clarified HR Version
SPRING ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4. Benefit: When moving on the ground, you can take a move action (including jumping or tumbling) and another melee attack action at any point during the move. You cannot take a second move action during a round when you make a spring attack. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can't use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor. You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.
Normal: Without this feat, you can only take a standard action either
before or after your move.
Special: A fighter may select Spring Attack as one of his fighter bonus
feats.

btw, this is using wording from Flyby Attack which limits it to only one move action during the round. That is part of the gist from 3.0, but the mechanics were different in 3.0.

If you were a half-celestial with flyby attack you cannot use psionic hustle while flying in conjunction with flyby attack but you can used ranged attacks and spells.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Ah. good point. Not sure how to clarify the standard action.

Use "the attack action with a melee weapon" instead of "a standard action".

-Hyp.

 

[jeffhartsell]

Use "the attack action with a melee weapon" instead of "a standard action".

-Hyp.

Then can you grapple with a spring attack if you are unarmed? I've always assumed you could grapple, trip, disarm, sunder, and bull rush with spring attack.

Grapple is a bit tricky since you have to use the grapple check to move the grapple instead of doing damage.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Then can you grapple with a spring attack if you are unarmed? I've always assumed you could grapple, trip, disarm, sunder, and bull rush with spring attack.

Grapple is a bit tricky since you have to use the grapple check to move the grapple instead of doing damage.

Sunder and Bull Rush are distinct standard actions.

Disarm and Trip are fine, since they can be used once in an attack action, and are performed with a melee weapon, so you are taking the attack action with a melee weapon. Attempting a trip unarmed is a possible exception, since it is by definition a trip performed without a weapon, and thus may not be legal in a Spring Attack.

Grapple is debatable, but it's arguably a weapon in its own right (since 'Weapon Focus: Grapple' is explicitly allowed as a feat) and indisputably intended for close combat, so I'd have no issue with terming it a melee weapon. As you note, it's tricky to fulfil the 5'-move-after requirement. You can't move the grapple in the same round you initiate it with a Spring Attack, since it's a separate standard action. Consequently, what you actually have to do is Spring in, initiate the grapple, establish the hold and deal damage... and then not move into their square to maintain the grapple, since that's what will prevent you from moving 5' after the attack.

-Hyp.

 

[jeffhartsell]

You can't move the grapple in the same round you initiate it with a Spring Attack, since it's a separate standard action. Consequently, what you actually have to do is Spring in, initiate the grapple, establish the hold and deal damage... and then not move into their square to maintain the grapple, since that's what will prevent you from moving 5' after the attack.

-Hyp.

One could argue (somewhat feebly, but still debatable) that the free 5' movement to enter the grappling square after the attack is still 5' of movement even though it does not count against you. You do draw AOO for the movement so it is not that you are not moving, it is just free.

I misread that moving the grapple could not be done in the same round you started it, but that rule is pretty clear. All you can do in round 1 is grab, hold, damage, move into target space.