Spring attack & charge?

[Destil]

You can use spring attack while charging, but only if you don't move after attacking.

 

[Max]

I would say no, you cannot use Spring Attack with a charge. From the SRD:

Spring Attack:
Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, the character can move both before and after the attack, provided that the character's total distance moved is not greater than the character's speed.

Note, it specifically says when using the attack action. Charge is different from "the attack action". Charge is a full round action, the Attack action is a standard action.

If you did allow Spring Attack to be used in a Charge, you definitely could not move afterwards. Charge is a full round action. When you complete your charge, you have completed a full round action and therefore, by definition, you are done.

Max

 

[Fenris]

When you complete your charge, you have completed a full round action and therefore, by definition, you are done.

Max

It is a matter of semantics. The SRD says "The charge stops as soon as the character threatens the target." Therefore you haven't yet attacked when the charge ends. So when the charge ends "by definition" you are not "done".

 

[Skaros]

I would say no, you cannot use Spring Attack with a charge. From the SRD:

Spring Attack:
Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, the character can move both before and after the attack, provided that the character's total distance moved is not greater than the character's speed.

Note, it specifically says when using the attack action. Charge is different from "the attack action". Charge is a full round action, the Attack action is a standard action.

If you did allow Spring Attack to be used in a Charge, you definitely could not move afterwards. Charge is a full round action. When you complete your charge, you have completed a full round action and therefore, by definition, you are done.

Max

Seems surprisingly cut and dry to me after reading the "charge" description in the combat section of the SRD with regards to the above logic.

Anyone care to dispute? There is a specifically listed "Attack Action" in the rules that is a standard action (which includes a move), and spring attack specifically states that it can be done when using an "attack action"

Further, Charge is listed as a full round action ... clearly separate and different than an attack action.

-Skaros

 

[Max]

It is a matter of semantics. The SRD says "The charge stops as soon as the character threatens the target." Therefore you haven't yet attacked when the charge ends. So when the charge ends "by definition" you are not "done".

Talk about semantics.

To quote the SRD completely:

-------------------------------
"Charge [Full][AoO: No]
Description: The character must move before attacking, not after. The character must move at least 10 feet and may move up to double base speed. All movement must be in a straight line, with no backing up allowed. The charge stops as soon as the character threatens the target. A character can't run past the target and attack from another direction.

After moving, the character may make a single melee attack or a bull rush. The character gets a +2 bonus on the attack roll. The character also suffers a -2 penalty to AC for 1 round.

A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.

A target can ready certain piercing weapons, setting them to receive charges by using the ready action against receiving a charge. A weapon of this type deals double damage if the readied attack is successful. "

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I think everyone understands that a Charge is a full round action that involves moving at least 10' in a straight line and making an attack. When you complete the entire charge action, including the attack, you have completed a full round action. By definition, your turn is over.

Max

 

[Caliban]

Charge is only a full round action in the SRD. In the core rulebooks it's a "special" standard action.

I haven't seen any errata that changes it to a full round action (the SRD is not errata).

 

[Max]

Charge is only a full round action in the SRD. In the core rulebooks it's a "special" standard action.

So it is. Interesting that they are different -- I hadn't noticed that.

However, the Charge action has a note at the bottom of table 8-1 that says:

"You can move up to twice your normal speed, but only before the attack, not after."

It says somthing similar in the text on page 124. I'd say that is pretty clear, as far as moving after the attack goes. (Which I realize is not something you had argued, Caliban).

The PHB version does leave the door open farther to using Spring Attack in your charge, however. Hmmm. Based on the PHB wording, I think I'd probably allow Spring Attack to be used in a Charge. It would only matter when charging something with reach, of course.

Thanks for pointing out the difference in the wording, Caliban. It is so easy to go to the SRD for online quotes, but there are differences between it and the PHB. I knew that, but hadn't seen this particular one.

Max

 

[Caliban]

The PHB version does leave the door open farther to using Spring Attack in your charge, however. Hmmm. Based on the PHB wording, I think I'd probably allow Spring Attack to be used in a Charge. It would only matter when charging something with reach, of course.

Yeah, that's how I run it.

Thanks for pointing out the difference in the wording, Caliban. It is so easy to go to the SRD for online quotes, but there are differences between it and the PHB. I knew that, but hadn't seen this particular one.

Max

No problem, glad I could help.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Charge is only a full round action in the SRD. In the core rulebooks it's a "special" standard action.

Yup. A special standard action which is still not "the attack action".

It falls under the general category of attack actions, but "the attack action" is clearly defined on p122, as a subcategory of the general category of attack actions, and distinct from Charge.

Spring Attack obviously could not use the wording "with any attack action", because that would allow it to be used with a Full Attack Action. Therefore, it says "with the attack action".

If it were supposed to be usable with a Charge, it would say "with the attack action or the charge action".

-Hyp.