Spring Attack related question...

[RigaMortus]

Let's say I have the following feats (and their respective prereq's):

Spring Attack
Expert Tactician

And the following Magic Item(s):
Chainshirt of Speed +1 (from DotF)
Boots of S&S

Effective Speed is: 60'

First round of combat, I win init and opponents are flat-footed. Can you:

1) Move 20' to nearest opponent, attack them with your extra attack from Expert Tactician.
2) Move 15' to next opponent, attack them with partial attack from Haste (Chainshirt of Speed).
3) Move 15' to next opponent, make an attack on them.
4) Move away 10'

???

On number 3, would that be one single attack or could you make it a "full-round" attack?

Edit: Removed some questions that weren't answered and gonna post them in a new thread.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

hmmm -
you are taking a standard action
move your speed, and make one attack.

you are getting two bonus "partial actions" - one from the haste and one from the expert tactician - that you using as well.

spring attack allows you to attack at ANY point during your move...

yep - seems perfectly legal provided that you are able to get the Xpert tactician attack this way.

you can't make #3 a full attack, as you are in a standard action...

now - if you got funky and threw in a partial charge - MAYBE... but this presumes that they are all in a straight line. If you do charge, you can't get away with 4 - moving the final 10 feet.

you can use the death blow with the partial action - but I don't have the wording of expert tactician in front of me.

I would be inclined to say yes - but I hear this thing has been errated this way to sunday and back again.

 

[RigaMortus]

Thanks for the advice...

Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Would like to see what the majority has to say about it.

 

[jontherev]

Let's say I have the following feats (and their respective prereq's):

Spring Attack
Expert Tactician

And the following Magic Item(s):
Chainshirt of Speed +1 (from DotF)
Boots of S&S

Effective Speed is: 60'

First round of combat, I win init and opponents are flat-footed. Can you:

1) Move 20' to nearest opponent, attack them with your extra attack from Expert Tactician.
2) Move 15' to next opponent, attack them with partial attack from Haste (Chainshirt of Speed).
3) Move 15' to next opponent, make an attack on them.
4) Move away 10'

???

On number 3, would that be one single attack or could you make it a "full-round" attack?

First of all, the extra attack from ET must be taken before or after your normal action. *I* would define normal action to include the partial action from Haste, but this would be a good question for the Sage to clarify. So, depending on what the answer to THAT is, you'd need to either end or begin your round with the attack from ET. In either case, you can't do what you have written.

You can't insert the hasted action in the middle of your standard action and move anytime you wish just because you have spring attack.

Here's a few examples of what you could do:
1)move 20' to foe and attack, leaving you 40' of movement left in this standard action.
2)move 15' to next opponent and STOP. Your standard action is now over and you have no movement left unless you use your haste to move
3)attack foe #2 due to haste, attack again due to ET, and you can't take a 5' step since you used the feat.

If your DM or The Sage rules that the extra attack from ET can be used *between* your standard/full round action and the extra partial action granted from Haste, then you still could not attack all 3 foes unless you started combat in melee, therefore qualifying to start off your round using the extra attack from ET. Then, move 35' to foe #2, attack him, move 15' to foe #3, attack due to haste, take 5' step.

The way you have it written is about 2 complete rounds' worth of actions.

 

[RigaMortus]

Re: Re: Spring Attack related question...

First of all, the extra attack from ET must be taken before or after your normal action.

Which it is... A Standard Action = an action + a Move. The move can be taken before or after the action. So I elect to take my move first and then use my attack from ET (which is before my action).

*I* would define normal action to include the partial action from Haste, but this would be a good question for the Sage to clarify.

I would think that the partial action is in addition to the Standard Action or (to be more specific) the "normal action" which is part of the Standard Action.

So, depending on what the answer to THAT is, you'd need to either end or begin your round with the attack from ET. In either case, you can't do what you have written.

There is nothing in ET stating that I need to "end" or "begin" my turn with the attack from ET. As I commented on your two quotes above, I would be attacking before I take my "action" this turn. The "move" part of the Standard Action does not count as "action" just as the "move". I am pretty sure I am right on this point at least.

You can't insert the hasted action in the middle of your standard action and move anytime you wish just because you have spring attack.

This statement I think I agree with you on. Makes sense.

Thx for your comments though. They helping me understand this a bit better.

 

[jontherev]

Re: Re: Re: Spring Attack related question...

This statement I think I agree with you on. Makes sense.

Thx for your comments though. They helping me understand this a bit better.

A standard ACTION is not an action? That's how we've been playing it. If movement is not an action, what is it? The feat says, 'before or after your normal action', not ATTACK action. I think normal action refers to either a standard or full-round action. Whether this includes any extra partial actions from Haste I'm not sure about.

EDIT:"Standard Action: A standard action allows a combatant to do something and move a combatant's indicated speed during a combat round. A combatant can move before or after performing the activity of the action. "

Sounds like movement is considered an action to me.

 

[RigaMortus]

The last sentence you quoted says it all:

"A combatant can move before or after performing the activity of the action".

To me this means, you get a move and an action, no? Or am I reading this wrong?

 

[jontherev]

The last sentence you quoted says it all:

"A combatant can move before or after performing the activity of the action".

To me this means, you get a move and an action, no? Or am I reading this wrong?

Here they are saying the action (usually an attack) is an activity of the standard action. Movement is still part of the standard action, and hence IS an action. I don't have my books handy, so I can't provide any other help with rules quotes. Yes, you get a move and an action, but that doesn't mean movement is not an action. Check the PHB charts. I think they list all the actions there. As an example, let's say you double move. Are you saying that that would not be an action (takes up your whole standard action)? Or would you say the first move is not an action, and the last half IS an action? Sounds weird to me.

 

[RigaMortus]

In the PHB, pg 122, under Table 8-1 they list the different types of actions you can do in combat... I am not gonna type the whole thing out, but there is NO "move" listed as an action. What they DO have is this:

Move-Only Actions:
- Double Move
- Run

So a Double Move or a Run in combat is considered a Move-Only Action. But a single move, is not considered an action. At least not in a Standard Action.

Under Table 8-4 (pg 128) the list Standard actions. There are some listed here that contain movement (such as Charge and Overrun) but none that say "Move" or "Single Move" or anything else of that nature.

I've been wrong plenty of times in the past... But this is how I am interpretting the rules on movement.

 

[kreynolds]

I've been wrong plenty of times in the past...

You're wrong again. A standard action allows a full move. A full move is your full movement rate at 1x speed. Spring Attack allows you to move up to your full 1x movement rate, before, after, or before and after your attack, so long as you don't not move more than your maximum 1x movement rate.