Spring Attack related question...

[RigaMortus]

You're wrong again. A standard action allows a full move. A full move is your full movement rate at 1x speed. Spring Attack allows you to move up to your full 1x movement rate, before, after, or before and after your attack, so long as you don't not move more than your maximum 1x movement rate.

And your point is? The debate is about whether the "move" you get as part of a Standard Action counts as an action itself. At least that was what I was debating. I fail to see where this is addressed in your passage there.

Sure, I agree, a standard action allows a full move. Great... But that full move isn't considered an action itself. At least I can't find anywhere it mentions that it is. So going back to the original post, ET allows you to make a free attack BEFORE or AFTER your "regular" action. Since all I did was move, I have not taken my "action" yet so I can use ET before I do. My extra action being the "action" part of the Standard Action and not the "move" part of the Standard Action.

Just to reiterate, because I feel that repeating the same thing over many times and many different ways helps people to remember what it is we are talking about... A standard action = an action and a move NOT an action and an action that can be a move. This is according to the PHB...

So therefore the move doesn't count as an action. And therefore I can move 1x my speed, perform ET BEFORE my action, and then start my action (whether it be an attack, casting a spell, what have you).

Ok, done blathering now... Your turn =)

 

[Artoomis]

Stricly speaking, the feat reads;

When using the attack action with a melee weapon, the character can move both before and after the attack, provided that the character's total distance moved is not greater than the character's speed

The way I read it, you'd have to take your regular attack with the move, any extra attacks would go before or after, as appropriate.

I don't think you can even Spring Attack with a partial action - you need to have BOTH a move and attack available. I admit that is an interpretation, but it seems a reasonable way of looking at it given the language of teh feat and what it does. It lets you take your regular move and split it up into two pieces - one before and one after your attack.

So, as I see it, you could attack, move-attack-move and then attack again with your feats and items. You'd provoke one AoO from leaving the threatened area of your first opponent (if you didn't kil him) and from going through the threatened areas of any opponents besides the one you actually attack during the Spring Attack.

Depending on how you intepret the rules, you MIGHT reasonably be able to:

Attack, move-attack-move and then partial charge with a move-attack-move (in a straight line) with your hasted extra partial action.

 

[RigaMortus]

I can move both before and after the attack... Alright...

1) I move up to an opponent, I attack them (via ET because I have yet to take my action yet, which would be an attack), I move...

2) Hey look, another opponent... I get my regular attack against them... I already moved up to him, I attacked, looks like I can move again, right?

3) I move again.... yet another opponent... I only have my partial left, so if I attack him I will have to use that and end my "regular" actions. So you do so...

In 1) and 2) you are satisfying the requirements for Spring Attack. You are moving, attacking, and moving. So I would say that you negate any AoOs against you from them.

The last one, number 3), I don't think we have any movement left if we want to make an attack because it will take our partial to do so. So we would have to end our regular movement and thus end the Standard Action, then take out partial... You make one attack and that is it... I believe the ruling is no 5' step on the partial if you already moved this round. Anyway, lets not get into that one....

That sounds about right to me... UNLESS (sorry, just thought about this) the attack from ET doesn't count as an attack "action"... But what else would it be?

 

[Artoomis]

When so you get your "Extra Tactician" attack? Before or after the activity of your action, right?

If your action is a Standard Action, the action is the combat action plus the move. I realize that the word "action" is use twice here, that is unfortunate, but there is no doubt that a Standard Action is an "action," and it can include a move and an attack. Thus the whole Spring Attack (attack and move) is an action.

Getting it the way you want would be extremely generous, and you might get a weak-willed DM to do it, but I would not.

Among other things, it more complicated and, generally, the simpler rule is the better interpretation. Also, my view does not really hamstring the character or in any way take away the capabilities of the feat or your equipment, so it is not overaly harsh.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

Hmmm - seems like we have another problem caused by people's finite round concept of time...

To simplify - use the action from your haste FIRST - not last.

Why -
Take the haste out of the equation - and impose the following grid.

XXX0XX
M-------W
XXXXXX

O = orc
M = monk
W = wizard

I want to attack and go by the orc (possibly killing him) so that I am within melee striking distance of the wizard. I have spring attack. I can do this - right?

I don't think you can even Spring Attack with a partial action - you need to have BOTH a move and attack available.

(edit UBB code error)

Not if you take the above wording. Once your move action is started - you no longer HAVE it - thx to the "finite time" of D and D. Said reading also makes spring attack more of an ennuch than toughness. Lets look at the relevant sentence from spring attack.

The benefit of Spring Attack reads as follows:
When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed.

The "First order reading" of this is:
When you have this feat, taking an action of the category attack does not automatically end the move action you may be taking on your turn.

Basically - this is the one cute feat that makes you go from "finite" to "flowing" combat time - and since people are stuck in finite time thinking (I get arguments like you only actually fall, blink, make saves ect... on "your turn" all the time... sheesh) they have real problems when confronted with this feat and situation.

Usually, they have problems adjucating haste, expeditious retreat, boots of striding and springing, Time Stop, and similar high level powers/spells from the PsiHB as well.

 

[jontherev]

And your point is? The debate is about whether the "move" you get as part of a Standard Action counts as an action itself. At least that was what I was debating. I fail to see where this is addressed in your passage there.

Sure, I agree, a standard action allows a full move. Great... But that full move isn't considered an action itself. At least I can't find anywhere it mentions that it is. So going back to the original post, ET allows you to make a free attack BEFORE or AFTER your "regular" action. Since all I did was move, I have not taken my "action" yet so I can use ET before I do. My extra action being the "action" part of the Standard Action and not the "move" part of the Standard Action.

Just to reiterate, because I feel that repeating the same thing over many times and many different ways helps people to remember what it is we are talking about... A standard action = an action and a move NOT an action and an action that can be a move. This is according to the PHB...

So therefore the move doesn't count as an action. And therefore I can move 1x my speed, perform ET BEFORE my action, and then start my action (whether it be an attack, casting a spell, what have you).

Ok, done blathering now... Your turn =)

Actually, the real debate is what they mean by "normal or regular" action (can't remember which word they use) in the description of the Expert Tactician feat. I interpret this to mean a standard or full-round action. This interpretation makes all of your points moot. Now, whether the action from Haste would be included in this, I'm not sure. You seem to be just throwing out the adjectives and using the word "action".

AFTER you interpret it the way you do, THEN the debate shifts to whether or not a full move is considered an action. And btw, a standard action is NOT just a move + action. You can substitute a M-E action instead of moving, which tells me that a move is considered an action. It just doesn't make sense to me to say a move is not an action, but other "actions" that can be done in its stead ARE considered actions.

There are several types of actions, of which M-E is the appropriate one for this discussion. Why are they called M-E actions is the first place? Because it is an action being substituted for a move action. All of the various M-E actions are based off of the move action (as far as the time/difficulty is takes). For example, climbing (which is essentially, just moving at 1/4 of your speed) is a M-E action.

Anyway, I'd be willing to bet my bag of dice that the Sage would agree with me.

 

[RigaMortus]

If your action is a Standard Action, the action is the combat action plus the move. I realize that the word "action" is use twice here, that is unfortunate, but there is no doubt that a Standard Action is an "action," and it can include a move and an attack. Thus the whole Spring Attack (attack and move) is an action.

Standard Action is not an "attack action"... An "attack action" can be part of a Standard Action. So when you read "When using the attack action with a melee weapon..." you are initiating "Spring Attack" on the "attack" part of the Standard Action, not the Standard Action as a whole.

Therefore, I would conclude that anytime you "attack" it would be considered an "attack action". If this conclusion is correct, then anytime I use a melee weapon with an "attack action" AND I can move BOTH BEFORE and AFTER, then I think Spring Attack would kick in, as it were.

 

[Ywain]

Riga,

A move is not considered a *separate* action from a standard action it is considered part and parcel of the standard action. The category of Move Only Actions isn't one of the 5 basic action types. A run is a Full Round Action and a double move is a Standard action. By your line of thinking drawing your sword (a Move Equivalent Action) is an action but moving 30' isn't. Or the first 30' of a double move isn't an action, but the second 30' is.

"Not an Action: Some activities are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else." (SRD)

You can take this two ways, that Moving 30' does take time to do so it must be an action (i.e. one portion of a standard action when combined with the defining "activity" of a standard action, or the defining activity of a standard action in the case of a double move, or a partial action in other circumstances.) Or moving is Not an Action and is an inherent part of doing something else (i.e. an inherent part of the Standard Action that by definition is allowing the movement.) Both interpretations render the move and activity of a Standard action inextricable.

Remember that you can always choose to do less in an action (Full-Round or Standard) than the maximum allowed. So you aren't obliged to move when you take a standard action, but any standard action by definition allows that option. If you have 4 iterative attacks you don't have to take all 4 but the Full-Round action allows that option.

Now, you cannot split a Standard Action with a Partial Action any more legally than you can split a multi portioned Full-Round Action in that way. If you have four attacks, you cannot attack twice, use an extra partial action to move 30', then attack twice more. All of the attacks are inextricably part of the same Full-Round Action even though each attack could be, in a sense, considered a discrete action. In the same way, you cannot Move, take an extra partial action, then the defining activity of a standard action.

This latter example is mostly academic as 99% of the time if you can do something as a standard action you can do it (minus the move) as a partial action. So you just put the standard tag on the partial action in the middle of your round and the partial tag on the action at the end of your round. But it becomes important when considering spring attack, because the order of the standard action is altered by the feat. The standard action still has all of the usual constituent parts (move and defining activity) but the move is split before and after the activity. So in the case of spring attack you have to use your extra partial action before the first move or after the second, because any other place in the combat round would split the standard action. (And as I said before this is akin to splitting a Full-Round Action.)

Sorry to wax all theoretical here. Hope it makes as much sense to you as it does to me.

 

[RigaMortus]

And btw, a standard action is NOT just a move + action. You can substitute a M-E action instead of moving, which tells me that a move is considered an action.

It tells me that you can substitute a move for an action, nothing more. If I move my speed x1, then it is just a move. If I move twice my speed, then I am actually doing an action. It's called a Double Move. If I move 4 (or 5) times my speed I am doing another action, it is called Running. If I drink a potion, I am replacing my MOVE with the action of drinking a potion.

You can substitute a partial action for a Move-Equivalent action too. That doesn't mean Move-Equivalent actions are partial actions now, does it?

 

[Artoomis]

Standard Action is not an "attack action"... An "attack action" can be part of a Standard Action. So when you read "When using the attack action with a melee weapon..." you are initiating "Spring Attack" on the "attack" part of the Standard Action, not the Standard Action as a whole.

Therefore, I would conclude that anytime you "attack" it would be considered an "attack action". If this conclusion is correct, then anytime I use a melee weapon with an "attack action" AND I can move BOTH BEFORE and AFTER, then I think Spring Attack would kick in, as it were.

If you were correct, then you could Spring Attack and THEN move again for ANOTHER 30' (assuming a 30' move rate). Why? Because the Spring Attack would ONLY be affecting the attack action, not the move.

The problem is you are attempting to be hyper-technical in the reading of rules that simple were not written with that kind of precision.

Does this help explain why you cannot do what you want?