Spycraft or D20 Modern or maybe something else I don't know about yet
- Thread starter rook111
- Start date
In very brief, they use a slight variant on the macro-department rules from Spycraft.
If you don't know how those work, it's a bit tricky to be brief, but I'll give it a shot.
First, species get certain overarching bonuses and penalties. +2 to this stat, -4 to that stat, X skill is always a class skill, +1 every four levels to initiative, etc. It's presented in a much neater format than D&D's races, though admittedly with a bit less flavor (so, less pleasant to read, easier to reference).
Under that, you will get a list of different subtypes of the race. For most races, this breaks down as being a little more like a caste system, or just a description of occupation. So, for the race BEM, you might have BEM Priest, BEM Warrior, BEM Chambermaid, etc. Each subtype will get a couple bonuses that set them apart from the other subtypes. Maybe some tweaks to the standard racial stat modifiers, a bonus to a certain skill, bonus gear picks, etc. They also each get a bonus feat. The feat is either specified, or is restricted to a certain tree.
The bonus for being human, essentially, is that you get a whole lot of subtypes to choose from, called specialties. So, while a BEM might have to make do with being a Warrior, a human can choose Army Ranger, Navy Pilot, Mob Bodyguard, Street Gang Member, Self-Taught Super-Ninja, etc. Each of those come with certain bonuses, and a bonus feat.
The whole thing is carefully balanced so that a given human and a given alien are essentially equal, when all the bonuses and penalties are added up.
If you don't know how those work, it's a bit tricky to be brief, but I'll give it a shot.
First, species get certain overarching bonuses and penalties. +2 to this stat, -4 to that stat, X skill is always a class skill, +1 every four levels to initiative, etc. It's presented in a much neater format than D&D's races, though admittedly with a bit less flavor (so, less pleasant to read, easier to reference).
Under that, you will get a list of different subtypes of the race. For most races, this breaks down as being a little more like a caste system, or just a description of occupation. So, for the race BEM, you might have BEM Priest, BEM Warrior, BEM Chambermaid, etc. Each subtype will get a couple bonuses that set them apart from the other subtypes. Maybe some tweaks to the standard racial stat modifiers, a bonus to a certain skill, bonus gear picks, etc. They also each get a bonus feat. The feat is either specified, or is restricted to a certain tree.
The bonus for being human, essentially, is that you get a whole lot of subtypes to choose from, called specialties. So, while a BEM might have to make do with being a Warrior, a human can choose Army Ranger, Navy Pilot, Mob Bodyguard, Street Gang Member, Self-Taught Super-Ninja, etc. Each of those come with certain bonuses, and a bonus feat.
The whole thing is carefully balanced so that a given human and a given alien are essentially equal, when all the bonuses and penalties are added up.
Hmmm...
Let me set my basis first. I own D20 Modern and its Arcana book. I do not own any Spycraft per se', but i have bought and am using in part, the Stargate Sg-1 game from AEg which is using the spycraft engine with the fluid initiative and such.
My *complaint* about the Sg-1 book is that it represents the show AS IF the show were an agent techno-thriller military style game. The spycraft engine and specs they prted over into the game seem to me to be wonderful for representing that small scale miltiary style game. It reminds me of some of my earlier days in gaming where that much precision and leel of detail were seen as good.
Between the two, I would say that someone looking for a clancy-eqque hard-detail modern combat with military feel, i would say that Spycraft, the parts i have seen and the obvious extrapolations i would expect in their spltbooks which are all over the shelves, would be my first choice.
Before someone with lots of time on their hands decides to jump out and call me rabid, remember, i do not like that take in the Sg-1 book, cuz the show does not focus on such things as much as say a clancey novel focuses on the gadgets and such. The fault i have is with the decision to represent the show that way, tho i think that, given that decision, the mechanics of spycraft works it well.
D20 modern seems suitable for modern fantasy/horror with lighter emphasis on the precision and stuff.
Now, all that said, i think the problem with both systems is using hit points. They both have different takes... Spycraft using a vitality and wounds (vitality = DND hit points and wounds ~ con, take wounds after all vitality are lost OR on criticals) while D20 modern just uses hit points BUT adds a massive damage roll whenever damage exceeds con, which means your 20th level drow might be dropped by a 9 damage hit, if her con is 8 for instance.) I dislike the notion of players "knowing" they can take the shot because they have lots of hit points.
My own personal thoughts are that a damage save system, see MnM for one such example, handles firearms better than any of the hit points. If i were going to keep hit points for a modern military game, I would probably use spycraft and ADD-IN the d20 modern massive damage level = con thing.
That may well be the best thing to conisder. Use one as a primary system and borrow good stuff from the other. Take a best of both worlds approach. The massive damage thing is an easy thing to port into spycraft. Of course, you could run d20 modern and use the spucraft things for source. (remember, i don't have those books so their usefulness is pure speculation.)
A final note: I recall seeing third party source books on military ops D20 in the gaming store last week. IIRC it was called something like Guts and Glory or something like it. It seems very broad brush, but not bad.
Let me set my basis first. I own D20 Modern and its Arcana book. I do not own any Spycraft per se', but i have bought and am using in part, the Stargate Sg-1 game from AEg which is using the spycraft engine with the fluid initiative and such.
My *complaint* about the Sg-1 book is that it represents the show AS IF the show were an agent techno-thriller military style game. The spycraft engine and specs they prted over into the game seem to me to be wonderful for representing that small scale miltiary style game. It reminds me of some of my earlier days in gaming where that much precision and leel of detail were seen as good.
Between the two, I would say that someone looking for a clancy-eqque hard-detail modern combat with military feel, i would say that Spycraft, the parts i have seen and the obvious extrapolations i would expect in their spltbooks which are all over the shelves, would be my first choice.
Before someone with lots of time on their hands decides to jump out and call me rabid, remember, i do not like that take in the Sg-1 book, cuz the show does not focus on such things as much as say a clancey novel focuses on the gadgets and such. The fault i have is with the decision to represent the show that way, tho i think that, given that decision, the mechanics of spycraft works it well.
D20 modern seems suitable for modern fantasy/horror with lighter emphasis on the precision and stuff.
Now, all that said, i think the problem with both systems is using hit points. They both have different takes... Spycraft using a vitality and wounds (vitality = DND hit points and wounds ~ con, take wounds after all vitality are lost OR on criticals) while D20 modern just uses hit points BUT adds a massive damage roll whenever damage exceeds con, which means your 20th level drow might be dropped by a 9 damage hit, if her con is 8 for instance.) I dislike the notion of players "knowing" they can take the shot because they have lots of hit points.
My own personal thoughts are that a damage save system, see MnM for one such example, handles firearms better than any of the hit points. If i were going to keep hit points for a modern military game, I would probably use spycraft and ADD-IN the d20 modern massive damage level = con thing.
That may well be the best thing to conisder. Use one as a primary system and borrow good stuff from the other. Take a best of both worlds approach. The massive damage thing is an easy thing to port into spycraft. Of course, you could run d20 modern and use the spucraft things for source. (remember, i don't have those books so their usefulness is pure speculation.)
A final note: I recall seeing third party source books on military ops D20 in the gaming store last week. IIRC it was called something like Guts and Glory or something like it. It seems very broad brush, but not bad.
There's a fundamental problem with adding MDT to a vit/wnd system. MDT and wounds are supposed to represent roughly the same kind of hit. If you have both, then any hit that does greater than Con has a chance of taking out the character, AND any critical hit that does greater than Con WILL take out the character. It makes combat VERY deadly (which may or may not be a good thing), much less predictable (again, may or may not be a good thing), and adds an extra layer of complexity (rarely a good thing).
So, you have a combat going on. We're going to track how Kenny takes damage, under this system. Kenny has a Con of 10, and 25 vitality.
Round 1, Kenny gets hit. He takes 8 damage, which comes off his vitality normally. He is at 17 vit/10 wounds.
Round 2, Kenny takes a critical hit. It only does 6 damage, which comes directly off wounds. He's hurting, and he has to make a save or be stunned. Fortunately, he's good at Fort saves, and makes it. He is at 17 vit/4 wounds.
Round 3, Kenny gets hit. He takes 12 damage. This comes off his vitality. And, he has to roll his Fort save, or fall down. Fortunately, he makes the save. But, he's still at 5 vit/4 wounds.
Round 4, Kenny gets hit. He takes 6 damage. That takes all his vitality, prompting another Fort save. This one, he fails, becoming stunned. And, he's now at 0 vit/3 wounds. One more hit, and he's out.
As you can see from this example, you'll end up rolling a LOT of Fortitude saves in any given combat. And, there's suddenly three or four different ways that combat can end very suddenly. As a player, I don't like my character being that vulnerable to the whims of chance. I want to know whether or not I'm on the verge of death, not go from fine to unconscious on one bad roll.
While simply adding MDT to the system sounds easy enough, I don't think you're likely to be happy with the results.
So, you have a combat going on. We're going to track how Kenny takes damage, under this system. Kenny has a Con of 10, and 25 vitality.
Round 1, Kenny gets hit. He takes 8 damage, which comes off his vitality normally. He is at 17 vit/10 wounds.
Round 2, Kenny takes a critical hit. It only does 6 damage, which comes directly off wounds. He's hurting, and he has to make a save or be stunned. Fortunately, he's good at Fort saves, and makes it. He is at 17 vit/4 wounds.
Round 3, Kenny gets hit. He takes 12 damage. This comes off his vitality. And, he has to roll his Fort save, or fall down. Fortunately, he makes the save. But, he's still at 5 vit/4 wounds.
Round 4, Kenny gets hit. He takes 6 damage. That takes all his vitality, prompting another Fort save. This one, he fails, becoming stunned. And, he's now at 0 vit/3 wounds. One more hit, and he's out.
As you can see from this example, you'll end up rolling a LOT of Fortitude saves in any given combat. And, there's suddenly three or four different ways that combat can end very suddenly. As a player, I don't like my character being that vulnerable to the whims of chance. I want to know whether or not I'm on the verge of death, not go from fine to unconscious on one bad roll.
While simply adding MDT to the system sounds easy enough, I don't think you're likely to be happy with the results.
Lugh said:
This is precisely why I dislike the W/V or even the normal hit points for gunplay games.
I really do not have a problem with ny dwarven fighter deciding it makes snese to just run up to the dragon and take the breath weapon so I can get my licks in afterwards. The style of game is so fantastic that i don't expect him to need to worry about getting Koed as he steps out.
For my stargate guy standing in cover who sees the jaffa standy *ready* in the hallway I DO NOT want him to step out and decide "i will take the staff shot then get my shots off." I want him, the player and the character, to both think "I gotta take him down but if he shoots me and hits i will most likely drop and not get my shot off at all."
That thinking will likely lead the character/player to both start thinking things like "maybe rolling out suddenly on the floor (player think "fight on defensive gives him a -2... i take a -4 but...") and trying to figure out ways to distract him (to get him to drop his "ready") and so forth.
Now, lets be clear here, regardless of whether you prefer the wall-o-safety that means you, the player DO KNOW whether or not that upcoming staff blast is a real threat (your verge of death) or just a "bookkeeping attack" (forces player to mark off hit points), you shoudl be able to see that the wounds vitality system gives you BOTH. At lower levels, you are in the "dont know if i am on VoD or not" while at higher levels you do. A 3rd level Stargate guy would be forced to view that next or any staff shot as a VoD issue, but by 6th, he can assume safety.
What MSD systems do is to keep that "risk of not getting to do my stuff after he shoots me" beyond the first few levels. This puts the player/character back in the boat where making the "roll out and fight defensive" or "find a way to distract him" as very good and very IMPORTANT decisions even after they have a few missions under their belt. The solutions to the ready jaffa in the hall that seems good and reasonable at third lebel seem reasonable and good at 6th and even 10th.
Now, in truth, i prefer the damage save (drop hit points and add in a lot of gradiations to the MSD save) better than either HP+MDS or HP+CON (what W/V boils down to.)
I think spycraft is perfect.
And I think that spycraft has far more brand recog than D20 modern right now.
Especially since nothing stellar (caveat: haven't seen Gamma World) has come out for D20M since its release. It would take only one really snazzy product though!
Problem is that Spycraft has snazzy products jumping out of the wood work.
Razuur
And I think that spycraft has far more brand recog than D20 modern right now.
Especially since nothing stellar (caveat: haven't seen Gamma World) has come out for D20M since its release. It would take only one really snazzy product though!
Problem is that Spycraft has snazzy products jumping out of the wood work.
Razuur
Whatever Corinth. There is a lot of books out for Spycraft, and only a handful of D20 modern.
I am not cutting on D20M. I just think that Spycraft is better for what he is thinking of doing.
If he was going to do X Files, I would have said D20M.
And I said snazzy as in quality. I don't think D20M has proven itself yet. Hopefully someone will come out with a great setting and really put it on the map. Right now I think publishers just don't really know what to do with D20 modern other than Holistic and their "war" series.
Razuur
I am not cutting on D20M. I just think that Spycraft is better for what he is thinking of doing.
If he was going to do X Files, I would have said D20M.
And I said snazzy as in quality. I don't think D20M has proven itself yet. Hopefully someone will come out with a great setting and really put it on the map. Right now I think publishers just don't really know what to do with D20 modern other than Holistic and their "war" series.
Razuur
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Lugh said:
OK, i pulled out Spycraft to reread the relevant section, and i'm still left with another question:
Other than the occasional bonus that increases with character level, how is this different from how races are done in D&D3E? I'm missing how it's a significant change.
Corinth
First Post
Because it allows you to do this (though, to my knowledge, it hasn't been done yet): choose a species, and then choose a professional training element. (This is, conceptually, what all human characters are: they get the "Human Macro-Species" benefits of being the baseline against which all others vary, and then they choose specific form of professional training that grants further benefits.)woodelf said:
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