SPYCRAFT: The greatest RPG ever made! The best d20 game ever!

[Doc_Klueless]

Fine. Semantics. Replace 'Take 20' with 'keep rolling until you get a 20'.

Geoff.

Why in the world would I do that? As I have quoted the Spycraft version of Take 20 already for you, it should be a simple matter to look at the rule and see that that is not how they are implimenting it. The whole "you'd roll until you'd get a 20" thing from D&D3e is not mentioned in the Spycraft rule. There is no mention whatsoever of rolling 20 times, etc. It just says that if you take 20, you get a 20 but forfeit the ability to score a Threat and therefore roll for Critical Success/Failure and it takes 20 times longer than normal.

I think the problem is that you're thinking D&D3e, not d20. The SRD states "Taking 20: When the character has plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), and when the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, the character can take 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate the character's result as if the character had rolled a 20. Taking 20 means the character is trying until the character gets it right. Taking 20 takes about twenty times as long as making a single check would take." It doesn't mention 'keep rolling until you get a 20." That's D&D3e. NOT d20. Spycraft then adds the caveat: "and you may not score a threat when taking 20."

 

[Geoff Watson]

In Spycraft, anyone with one rank in a skill, can do anything with that skill, no matter how difficult, by rolling a 20. Correct? Whats to stop them from retrying until they get a 20? Why would you need to get more than one rank in some skills? Are you being purposely obtuse?

What is the rationale for Take 20 in Spycraft? Do they explain it at all? The SRD leaves out explanations, it just has rule mechanics.

Geoff.

 

[Horacio]

In Spycraft, anyone with one rank in a skill, can do anything with that skill, no matter how difficult, by rolling a 20. Correct? Whats to stop them from retrying until they get a 20? Why would you need to get more than one rank in some skills? Are you being purposely obtuse?

What is the rationale for Take 20 in Spycraft? Do they explain it at all? The SRD leaves out explanations, it just has rule mechanics.

Geoff.

And in standard D&D any 1st level wizard with 8 Str and -1 attack bonus can hit even a dragon if she scores a 20...
Why would you need to get more tahn -1 attack bonus?

This is becoming rather silly, why don't we return this thread to Kap_Kantrip?

 

[Kevin Wilson]

Well, technically, you don't even need a rank in the skill to get a natural 20, if it's untrained. After all, we were shooting for a cinematic feel. In the movies we were modelling, nothing's impossible, just occasionally very improbable.

Take 20 works as it does in 3rd edition, more or less, being there to avoid repetitive and tedious rerolling on skill checks that you will eventually certainly succeed at, like searching a room one molecule at a time.

But remember, in 3rd edition, any DC 21 or more above your skill modifier is just impossible for your character to succeed at. Even taking 20 won't help you there. Nor will it in Spycraft. However, you can try rolling, hoping for a natural 20. This represents a spark of inspiration, or a sudden stroke of luck that is in line with action movie skill use. But remember, at that point, you're just as likely to critically fail and really put your foot in it. Either way though, something noteworthy is likely to happen, just like in the movies.

If you feel that this is too cinematic for your campaign, it is ignored easily enough (a few feats need to change a bit, but nothing major), but we've had good results with it during playtests. I would say give it a try, and if you don't like it, set it aside, just like any other rule.

-Kevin Wilson

In Spycraft, anyone with one rank in a skill, can do anything with that skill, no matter how difficult, by rolling a 20. Correct? Whats to stop them from retrying until they get a 20? Why would you need to get more than one rank in some skills? Are you being purposely obtuse?

What is the rationale for Take 20 in Spycraft? Do they explain it at all? The SRD leaves out explanations, it just has rule mechanics.

Geoff.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

In Spycraft, anyone with one rank in a skill, can do anything with that skill, no matter how difficult, by rolling a 20. Correct? Whats to stop them from retrying until they get a 20? Why would you need to get more than one rank in some skills? Are you being purposely obtuse?

I already wrote the answer to that question before. Are you being purposefully obtuse?

What's keeping them from retrying until they get a 20 is that they are just as likely to roll a 1 thus allowing the GC to activate a critical error and unleash trouble on them.

I.E.

A snoop is trying to enhance photographs taken from a digital camera on his computer. Instead of taking his time, he tries to be a showoff and starts rolling dice. On his third attempt he gets a 1, the GC activate the error by spending two action dice and as a result the agent, through bad luck and stupid mistakes, lose/corrupt all the data. The GC laughs while the agent's team mates are left to wonder how a supposed specialist in surveilance could bungle things so badly.

If you have plenty of time and face no danger, you just take a 20 and if you have any degree of competence in the skill you should succeed. There is no need to tempt the devil on a routine check, eh? Sure, you forfeit possible critical success, but so what? Reliability is a virtue.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Well, technically, you don't even need a rank in the skill to get a natural 20, if it's untrained. After all, we were shooting for a cinematic feel. In the movies we were modelling, nothing's impossible, just occasionally very improbable.

Take 20 works as it does in 3rd edition, more or less, being there to avoid repetitive and tedious rerolling on skill checks that you will eventually certainly succeed at, like searching a room one molecule at a time.

But remember, in 3rd edition, any DC 21 or more above your skill modifier is just impossible for your character to succeed at. Even taking 20 won't help you there. Nor will it in Spycraft. However, you can try rolling, hoping for a natural 20. This represents a spark of inspiration, or a sudden stroke of luck that is in line with action movie skill use. But remember, at that point, you're just as likely to critically fail and really put your foot in it. Either way though, something noteworthy is likely to happen, just like in the movies.

If you feel that this is too cinematic for your campaign, it is ignored easily enough (a few feats need to change a bit, but nothing major), but we've had good results with it during playtests. I would say give it a try, and if you don't like it, set it aside, just like any other rule.

-Kevin Wilson

Thanks for clearing that up, Kevin. Now, can we please get back to discussing how *cool* the game is? Frankly, I've been losing interest in this thread ever since it got hijacked by Geoff's nitpicking...

 

[Jester_OC]

Anyone make their own Mastermind yet? It looks a bit complicated but of course the best way to see if it is worth it is to try it out. Anyone do something with it yet?

Jester_OC

p.s. The best joke I have heard all week has been that someone's criteria for buying a Pen and Pencil RPG is that it must be perfect! I'd have to give up role-playing, cancel my subscription to Dragon, and Dungeon magazines and burn all my books if I was THAT puckered up.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

The best joke I have heard all week has been that someone's criteria for buying a Pen and Pencil RPG is that it must be perfect! I'd have to give up role-playing, cancel my subscription to Dragon, and Dungeon magazines and burn all my books if I was THAT puckered up.

LOL. Too funny!

Nothing is ever perfect: Not RPGs, not CRPGs, not books, not movies, not video games, not the weather. There is always room for improvement. If there wasn't, there would never be any improvements and we would all be living in some fantasy Utopia that eventually stagnates and falls apart under the weight of our own boredom.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

And more importantly, we'd all be playing the one true RPG.

Perhaps we could even ask to be recognized as a major religion.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

All right, the honey moon's over. Well, not really, I'm still giggling at the thought of my next session.

But I'll share a true concern about the rules and profit from the fact that Mr.Wilson is keeping tab on the thread; The chase rules. I love the concept and they work rather well for two car of similar size.

But

1: When you make a successful finishing move, you win the chase. If the prey's car has been reduced to 0 wound points by a crash test, OK. But what is keeping him from resuming his flight if you tailgated him (Crowd) into an obstacle but the damage aren't enough to render the vehicule useless? It's not too bad since I can describe how the vehicules is now in a position making resuming the chase impossible, but if it happens everytime it might be weird.

2: The rules offer no guidelines to take into account the different size/mass of vehicules. If an agent driving a compact car uses the cut-off maneuver against a bus, cinemetic and real life physics both lead you to expect that he'll wreck his car but will barely slow the bus.

Yet the rules simply state that the predator wins the chase and both vehicules make a crash test based solely on the speed of the chase without accounting for the fact that two vehicules of different mass are colliding with each other.

Druing a cut-off maneuver, rules also let the agent jump from his car as if the speed was 0 MPH to avoid the crash but if the chase speed before the maneuver was 105 MPH this is simply impossible even when taking superspy physics into account.

Sure, I can use common sense but I'd appreciate guidelines that take into account different car sizes.