D&D 4E SRM Marking Marked and Other 4Eisms

Lizard said:
I will be dumbfounded if it does, because it's...uh...dumb.

Whatever a Fighter does to 'mark' an Orc, he can do to a friend -- even more easily if the friend is willing.
Well, except threaten the friend with lethal bodily harm. That might interfere with their friendship, although it would solve the ally/enemy dichotomy.

Given that the fighter's mark seems to amount to "if you do anything other than engage with me in combat, I'll take the opportunity to stab you," I don't suppose that it would work very well on an ally. I figure that if you aren't seriously threatening to remove organs, you can't mark the character. Marking is precisely focusing on an opponent in such a way as to direct their actions toward you by punishing their attempts to disengage. I think that you might be going wrong by taking it to be some abstract metaphysical hocus pocus that the fighter throws around, divorced from its effects.
 

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Doug McCrae said:
Why can characters make reflex saves when they're asleep?

They can?

A sleeping character is "helpless". I've never heard of making a reflex save while sleeping. (Fortitude? Your body fights off the poison. Will? Maybe...your mind is still active and your subconscious will defend you. But Reflex?)

If you tossed a sleeping person off a cliff, I think I'd let them make some sort of check -- wisdom, maybe? -- to wake up and take normal hit point damage. Otherwise, it would be resolved as a coup de grace.

If there's a rule which explicitly states "sleeping characters get reflex saves", it's a stupid rule. How does the presence of stupid rules in 3e (of which there are many) justify even stupider rules in 4e?
 






Lizard said:
But WHY not?

Never mind "game balance". What's the in-game-world reason?

Hell, what's the in-game-world reason marks trump each other?

In terms of the paladin, his mark is a supernatural ability. The reason the prior mark vanishes is because Tyr doesn't like to share the limelight with some fighter goon's taunts. It's a supernatural ability, so as far as we know a wizard did it. But suppose it's two fighters trading marks.

Joe Fighter marks the ogre, focusing on him and using a series of feints and challenges to get the brute in a position where any attention to any other PC will open up a big hole in the ogre's defenses.

Ed Fighter then comes up and does the exact same thing- except the sequence of feints and shoves that moves the ogre into position for _him_ puts him out of line for Joe.

Sue the Evil Paladin, working on the ogre side, then wants to use her mark ability on her ally to remove Ed's mark. The DM cuffs her for ignoring the spirit of the rules, and then tells her that Hextor isn't interested in helping a minion avoid a fight.

Willard the Evil Fighter, also working on the ogre side, also fails to get the picture and attempts to use his mark on the ogre to remove Ed's mark. The DM sets Willard's character sheet on fire after explaining that no, it doesn't work that way. In the roil of the _abstract combat round_, the ogre trying to deal with Ed who's really trying to kill him and Willard who is really trying to kill him (but not really trying after this round) and whom he shouldn't bludgeon while simultaneously treating his feints as serious threats yet not ignoring the _real_ threat of Ed... it's just not something somebody can process without results much worse than simply dealing with the first mark. If Willard really is turning coat and stabbing the ogre to death in mid-fight, then fine- it's a real threat that may gain additional oomph from surprise. Willard is no longer an ally trying to rules-lawyer some help for his ogrish friend, he's a brand-new enemy.
 



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