D&D 4E SRM Marking Marked and Other 4Eisms

[lkj]

Which makes precious little sense.

Of course, we've already seen some powers which, though allegedly attacks, can be useful in some situations if used on one's allies. The rogue's positioning strike can get the defender where you need him to be -- or the wizard out of the line of fire. Powers which trigger on 'bloodied' might prompt one teammate to shiv another. Etc. Blanket prohibition that the Magic Wall Of Deus Ex Machina prohibits this are patently silly, so I'm going to assume these 'exploits' were tested and balanced for, and will be much less effective in actual play than they seem -- or may even be necessary in actual play to acheive optimal efficiency. Knowing when to stab your buddy might be an important part of 4e system mastery.

(Consider, for instance, that Wally the Warlord is dominated by a mind flayer. Fred the fighter wants to make sure Wally doesn't go postal on Willy the Wizard, so Fred marks Wally to try to force him to attack someone who can take a swing or two. Saying "You can't do that!" deprives characters of an important option. Not to mention that roleplaying wise, PCs can and do come to blows. It would be a very odd thing to say a power can affect a PC when there's a debate over the ethics of orc torture which led to interparty violence, but not under other circumstances.)

I've really got to completely disagree that 'not marking an ally' as a rule doesn't make any sense. I think the reverse is true.

For instance, I would presume that the fighter's mark has to do with the fighter paying particular attention to a particular opponent. That opponent therefore must pay particular attention to the fighter in order to avoid that fighter getting an additional advantage in the fight. If he doesn't, the fighter takes advantage of his mark.

It's not credible to mark an ally in that fashion. The ally doesn't take his friend seriously as an opponent. Nor should he, cuz his friend, in game, won't credibly attack him.

For the paladin, I need the flavor text. But it's not much of a stretch to assume that the paladin needs 'divinely inspired fury' against an opponent in order to summon his god's power. And he can't pull that off against an ally. Makes a lot of sense to me.

As for your 'dominated warlord' example-- That warlord is no longer an ally. He's under the control of an enemy. Of course you can mark him.

Might there be judgment calls? Yeah probably, but no more than with any other rule.

Here's where we'll probably agree. Having only the most recent mark be active is, indeed, a rule that exists for game simplicity and to avoid extra stacking. Why shouldn't two defenders be able to mark a given opponent and therefore have that opponent doubly screwed. "Oh no! I either attack the fighter and get nailed by the paladin or attack the paladin and get nailed by the fighter!"

I'd agree that's a legitimate complaint (based on what we know) about in-game 'realism'. Maybe the full rules will make this clearer. Maybe it simply is to avoid extra complication. Not a big deal to me, but that's for the individual to decide.

AD

 

[lkj]

Based on the comments regarding the fighter's Thicket of Blades ability, I'm going to guess that you can only mark a character if you attack it first.

That might work. In fact, it would partly answer the problem of the 'in-game' realism of having one mark cancel the next by causing a re-positioning or some such (i.e., getting int he way of the previous mark).

By itself, it does create the odd circumstance of encouraging one to attack an ally, however.

AD

 

[Hussar]

To wit, on average human beings can temporarily recall 7 random facts on a short term basis. Now some individuals can do better, some worse, but the average is 7. This is the reason there are 7 digits in a phone number

Not in all countries. In Japan, where I live, most phone numbers have 8 digits. Hey, maybe that's the reason why they kick our butts in academic tests.

 

[Hussar]

One given example of a paladin mark was one that hurt the markee if he attacked someone other than the paladin. If the mark does little enough damage that the markee doesn't care, it won't protect the rest of the party. If it does enough damage that the markee cares, you can use it to *kill* the markee (but only if you avoid combat).

That still doesn't work. So long as the marked target tries to attack the marker, he doesn't suffer the penalties. He also will not suffer the penalties if he choses not to attack at all.

Ok, I don't know that for sure, but, that's exactly how the knight works.

So, marking and running doesn't actually work. The markee doesn't suffer anything per round unless he tries to attack someone else. Presumably marks end at the end of an encounter, so, worst case scenario, it winds up a draw with the marker and markee both withdrawing.

Actually, that's a pretty easy fix, although not mentioned in the text. Marking is a swift action that lasts 1 round. Done. Now it does not help the paladin at all to not be attacking the target since he cannot mark without attacking.

 

[RodneyThompson]

Ninja WotC Employee Attack! 4th Edition Anime Thunder Dragon Tail Golden Wyvern Cut Slash Strike!

To address some concerns in a totally informal way:

Concern 1: Hey, can't the paladin just mark the target and just run away?

Answer 1: Gee, that does seem like the kind of thing the ability should take into consideration. Last I checked...it does. If a paladin calls upon the power of his god to lay his divine vengeance upon any who are to cowardly to face him...he'd better be ready to face them.

Concern 2: Can't you just mark an ally to remove another mark?

Answer 2: Last I checked, you can. I have serious doubts you'll want to. Lets see, I can damage my ally with my attack and impose a penalty on attack rolls...or let the monster impose the exact same penalty on attack rolls. Also, I've wasted a precious action in doing so. Possibly a standard action. Also, I'm no longer actually defending my allies, and the monsters are now in no danger of being targeted by any of my powers that deal with marked foes. Yep. That was a good decision.

Concern 3: What kind of in-world sense does marking make?

Fighter marks someone: The fighter's stance and attacks keep an opponent's attention focused on him; that foe knows that if he wavers his attention for just a second, it might give the fighter the chance to strike, and strike hard. Even when attacking someone other than the fighter, that foe keeps looking out of the corner of its eye at the fighter, wary of another incoming attack.

Paladin: A surge of divine energy flows from the paladin to the enemy, giving the weight of the gods to the words of his challenge. As a sanctified agent of that god, the paladin acts as a representation of that deity's power, and when the paladin has given his word that he will challenge that foe his god makes sure all know that his word is law.

Concern 4: What kind of in-world sense does "no overlapping marks" make?

Answer: Aside from the fact that sometimes a game rule has to happen for balance reasons and rationalization concerns come second, let's look at the two possible explanations:

Paladin overwrites fighter: The enemy has been keeping a wary eye on the fighter, not daring to give him an opening. When touched by a power flowing directly from the gods, that foe has bigger things to worry about; the power of the divine is not to be trifled with.

Fighter overwrites paladin: A divine challenge has been issued, and the gods have backed the paladin's challenge. With the fighter's intervention, the sanctity of the challenge is tainted, and the paladin must once again seek out an enemy to challenge directly without he fighter's intervention.

As an aside, overlapping marks is a tactical choice, and in practice not one made lightly. After all, if the fighter and paladin take turns marking the same target, there are likely other foes out there who *could* be being marked, but aren't, reducing the party's effectiveness as the defenders waste important resources.

 

[Hussar]

Ninja WotC Employee Attack! 4th Edition Anime Thunder Dragon Tail Golden Wyvern Cut Slash Strike!

Oh man, that is SO sigged. ROTFLMAO.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Aww, damn then I guess my idea of when a Defender "Marks" a ally he disrupts any attack a enemy Defender would have while Marking that target. (In Game Reason: The Defender by keeping close watch on his ally can block and fend off attacks from the enemy Defender).

This also enables said ally to not be affected by Combat Advantage. (In Game Reason: Since the Defender is paying close attention to his ally, all incoming Combat Advantage attacks could be reasonably assumed blocked of fended off by the Defender).

Won't have anything like in game. Oh well.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Paladin: Behold the Power the Righteous God. Attack my allies, foul creature, and be punished! *marks creature*

Fighter: I will mark him too, he won't pass through me and my big ax. *marks same creature

Paladin: No, NOOO. What have you done? My divine challenge, it's gone! But why? How? HOW i ask!

Fighter: Sorry dude. It's just a martial maneuver I learned yesterday, didn't know it was a dispel magic too.

Exactly.

 

[Darth Cyric]

Ninja WotC Employee Attack! 4th Edition Anime Thunder Dragon Tail Golden Wyvern Cut Slash Strike!

To address some concerns in a totally informal way:

Concern 1: Hey, can't the paladin just mark the target and just run away?

Answer 1: Gee, that does seem like the kind of thing the ability should take into consideration. Last I checked...it does. If a paladin calls upon the power of his god to lay his divine vengeance upon any who are to cowardly to face him...he'd better be ready to face them.

Concern 2: Can't you just mark an ally to remove another mark?

Answer 2: Last I checked, you can. I have serious doubts you'll want to. Lets see, I can damage my ally with my attack and impose a penalty on attack rolls...or let the monster impose the exact same penalty on attack rolls. Also, I've wasted a precious action in doing so. Possibly a standard action. Also, I'm no longer actually defending my allies, and the monsters are now in no danger of being targeted by any of my powers that deal with marked foes. Yep. That was a good decision.

Concern 3: What kind of in-world sense does marking make?

Fighter marks someone: The fighter's stance and attacks keep an opponent's attention focused on him; that foe knows that if he wavers his attention for just a second, it might give the fighter the chance to strike, and strike hard. Even when attacking someone other than the fighter, that foe keeps looking out of the corner of its eye at the fighter, wary of another incoming attack.

Paladin: A surge of divine energy flows from the paladin to the enemy, giving the weight of the gods to the words of his challenge. As a sanctified agent of that god, the paladin acts as a representation of that deity's power, and when the paladin has given his word that he will challenge that foe his god makes sure all know that his word is law.

Concern 4: What kind of in-world sense does "no overlapping marks" make?

Answer: Aside from the fact that sometimes a game rule has to happen for balance reasons and rationalization concerns come second, let's look at the two possible explanations:

Paladin overwrites fighter: The enemy has been keeping a wary eye on the fighter, not daring to give him an opening. When touched by a power flowing directly from the gods, that foe has bigger things to worry about; the power of the divine is not to be trifled with.

Fighter overwrites paladin: A divine challenge has been issued, and the gods have backed the paladin's challenge. With the fighter's intervention, the sanctity of the challenge is tainted, and the paladin must once again seek out an enemy to challenge directly without he fighter's intervention.

As an aside, overlapping marks is a tactical choice, and in practice not one made lightly. After all, if the fighter and paladin take turns marking the same target, there are likely other foes out there who *could* be being marked, but aren't, reducing the party's effectiveness as the defenders waste important resources.

Thanks a bunch for this.

It seemed to me like the display of fighter and paladin overriding each other was there just to drive the fact home that, yes, defenders can override each other's marks. But it doesn't mean they should.

 

[FireLance]

Also, I'm no longer actually defending my allies, and the monsters are now in no danger of being targeted by any of my powers that deal with marked foes.

Aha! So there will be powers that affect marked foes. Interesting...

Paladin overwrites fighter: The enemy has been keeping a wary eye on the fighter, not daring to give him an opening. When touched by a power flowing directly from the gods, that foe has bigger things to worry about; the power of the divine is not to be trifled with.

The fluff probably should involve the fighter backing off from a divinely sanctioned challenge (albeit one that he could disrupt if he chose to do so) since the enemy taking his attention off the fighter just screams "This is when the fighter takes advantage of the enemy's lack of focus" to me.

Fighter overwrites another fighter could be a problem, though.