D&D 4E SRM Marking Marked and Other 4Eisms

[Cadfan]

Theorem:

Premise the First: As the number of effects one can inflict on an enemy increases, the chances that some of those effects might be beneficial on an ally increases as well.
Premise the Second: As the chances that a secondary effect might benefit an ally increase, the chances that this benefit will be greater than the disadvantage of stabbing your ally increases as well.

Therefore,
If you want to remove all the secondary effects from the game thus rendering combat a boring exchange of hit point damage once again, all because you're worried that fighters will brutally club their allies in the face with a giant spiked hammer in order to knock them about the battlefield into better positioning, you can shove off.

 

[fafhrd]

I'm slightly concerned with the viability of multiple defender parties in encounters against solo monsters. Of course, it all depends on exactly how big of a chunk marking keyed powers represent of a defender's combat potential.

They may have gone with a mark replacement system as opposed to an "inviolate mark" for just this reason. Depending on the associated powers available, it may work out that the fighter marks the dragon and does his special follow up that is only allowed on marked enemies, then the paladin overwrites and does his thing etc. If the immediate, attendant effects are sufficiently nasty, the question of whose mark is active on the dragon's turn may be an afterthought.

 

[Deverash]

wow, so if your a paladin, mark a critter, and step back into a ten foot hall behind two of your companion. Then watch as he kills himself, trying to get through them.

This is so silly, and combat is supposed to be easier now??

You mean two of your companions with probably lower defenses and HPs? The whole point of the power, after all, is to encourage the creature to attack you instead of someone else. If they can take out the cleric(because your using them to block for you) or the ranger(whose probably doing way more damage than your mark is), doesn't that kinda defeat the point of being a defender in the first place?

 

[Plane Sailing]

This is full of crap.

Just sayin.

This is the kind of offensive comment directed to another poster that merits a suspension. Three days in this case.

Just sayin.

 

[AZRogue]

You mean two of your companions with probably lower defenses and HPs? The whole point of the power, after all, is to encourage the creature to attack you instead of someone else. If they can take out the cleric(because your using them to block for you) or the ranger(whose probably doing way more damage than your mark is), doesn't that kinda defeat the point of being a defender in the first place?

Yep. And the Paladin probably wouldn't be as effective as, say, a caster putting a damager-per-round spell on the monster and stepping back into that same hallway and waiting for it to die.

Wait a minute. A Ranger could sit up high in a tree in an open field and shoot arrows at the monster while it either tried to climb the tree or run away, all the while waiting for it die.

This game is broken.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Yep. And the Paladin probably wouldn't be as effective as, say, a caster putting a damager-per-round spell on the monster and stepping back into that same hallway and waiting for it to die.

Wait a minute. A Ranger could sit up high in a tree in an open field and shoot arrows at the monster while it either tried to climb the tree or run away, all the while waiting for it die.

This game is broken.

That be a pretty dumb monster to try and keep failing to climb the tree when there is a more deadly and easier to attack opponent on the ground.

 

[AZRogue]

Ack! WotC ninja attacks while I'm composing my post and I miss it. Of course, it renders my entire in depth post meaningless, now. For that, if for nothing else, I will no longer be buying 4E.

On a side note, it looks like they actually considered some of the concerns brought up. It's almost like they play RPGs too ...


Oh well. I wasn't that far off in my explanations, at least. And my long-winded post was worth it, if only because I got to use the phrase "puts some lead in the Defender's pencil."

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The real trick in 4th edition will be waiting for a second mechanic to come out that enables you to defend an ally (similar to the Eternal Blade's defender power in DDM 2.0). Then one character marks the target with thicket of blades or something and the character with defender stands next to him. If the monster attacks the guy who marked it, he takes an attack from the one with the defender power. If the monster attacks the one with the defender power, he takes an OA from the thicket of blades guy who marked him. And, to be perfect, if they create a bodyguard power somewhere, the wizard takes fighter training or whatever to get it and takes the hit when the monster tries for either one and the attack is at a penalty and BOTH defenders get their OAs on the monster.

Abusing one mechanic has limitations. My prediction is that secret to powergaming in 4th edition will be stacking as many different exception based (which can be translated as "no coherent and consistent rule-set generating the mechanics for the various abilities so there WILL be multiple mechanics to accomplish the same effect by the second kool powers splatbook if they don't show up in the core rules)" mechanics as possible together to create no-win situations for enemies.

A LOT is going to depend on precisely how these abilities are worded and what they allow multiclassing and class training feats to snag from other classes.

 

[Darth Cyric]

A LOT is going to depend on precisely how these abilities are worded and what they allow multiclassing and class training feats to snag from other classes.

I do kind of wonder if, say, a Paladin took Thicket of Blades through Fighter Training feats and then marked an enemy one way or the other (Thicket OR Divine Challenge) if the two abilities would stack for a nice double whammy if the Paladin's close enough.

Just speculating. Truthfully, I don't even know if the build in question would be possible in the first place, much less the double whammy.

 

[hong]

Thunder Dragon

... this is going to be in the Draconomicon, right?