D&D 4E SRM Marking Marked and Other 4Eisms

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I do kind of wonder if, say, a Paladin took Thicket of Blades through Fighter Training feats and then marked an enemy one way or the other (Thicket OR Divine Challenge) if the two abilities would stack for a nice double whammy if the Paladin's close enough.

Just speculating. Truthfully, I don't even know if the build in question would be possible in the first place, much less the double whammy.

I think that will not really be a problem. If he didn't take the FIghter training feat, he would have probably a Paladin ability with "similar" effect.

A different question is wether they will add additional conditions and powers keyed off them in later books. That's akin to adding a new bonus type for armor class in 3.x, and can very well imbalance the game.

But I think they have a good base for this not happening. They are defining the different conditional modifiers pretty hard - Combat Advantage seems to be a catch-all for Dex Bonus lost/Flat-Footed/Flanked/Superior Position(?). Marked is a catch-all for "I force the enemy to concentrate on me!". I hope spelling out these stuff so explicitely means that nobody will by "accident" introduce some new condtional modifiers and powers for them in a later splat book. (There is still a chance they do it on purpose )

 

[wedgeski]

Marking appears to me to be one of the new 'core' combat maneuvers, meaning it's one of those natural things, like flanking in 3ed, that Defenders will be doing all the time. Coupled with the apparent reduction in the number of enemies per encounter (1 per player, not counting Elite or Solo monsters), it seems to me it'll work just fine.

I'll definitely be investing in some of those props to help me on the grid, though sticking pins in PC's heads is going too far!

 

[glass]

It does not "hurt you" either, unless you mean the paladin's ability which is explicitly magic.

And even then, it doesn't necessarily hurt you -it does hp damage not actual injury.


glass.

 

[wedgeski]

I'm slightly concerned with the viability of multiple defender parties in encounters against solo monsters. Of course, it all depends on exactly how big of a chunk marking keyed powers represent of a defender's combat potential.

Well multiple-Defender parties are against the grain anyway... that was the point of defining class roles in the first place I think?

 

[hong]

Well multiple-Defender parties are against the grain anyway... that was the point of defining class roles in the first place I think?

If you have 5 people in the group, you're going to double up on at least one role....

 

[Primal]

Accessorisation is key. Notice how he mentioned using things like dice or coins to mark who's marked (heh), and cards to keep track of conditions and powers. Without these, I can see the game bogging down fast.

We were doing something similar for the last game I ran. Instead of keeping track of hit points for each of the 20 wights separately, I used dice instead. 15 damage = dead wight; <15 damage = "hurt" wight, put a die next to it. If a hurt wight is hit again, it's automatically killed. Similarly everyone had a Bo9S character and we used the downloadable pdf of power cards to keep track. Made things run quite smoothly.

Seems like they've reduced the *rolls* in combat but introduced whole new layers of tactical complexity at the same time. :\

If you're going to keep track of all those conditional modifiers ('bloodied', 'combat advantage', 'marked' and who knows what else) you're going to need quite a lot of different types of accessories -- especially as you also occasionally need to "tag" a character with two (or more) conditions. For example, does Stephen use skulls to represent being *both* 'Bloodied' and 'Granting Combat Advantage'? Which color? Does he buy bigger beads for Giants or Dragons?

I wonder how many times a DM has to answer a player's "Which condition does this base/bead/die signify?"-question in combat. You might provide everyone with a reference sheet, but it takes time to memorize it by heart (and you typically only memorize those things which only concern your character anyway).

With these additional layers they're going to spend more time on their action than in 3E. Anyway, that's how I see it.

 

[Jhulae]

Seems like they've reduced the *rolls* in combat but introduced whole new layers of tactical complexity at the same time. :\

If you're going to keep track of all those conditional modifiers ('bloodied', 'combat advantage', 'marked' and who knows what else) you're going to need quite a lot of different types of accessories -- especially as you also occasionally need to "tag" a character with two (or more) conditions. For example, does Stephen use skulls to represent being *both* 'Bloodied' and 'Granting Combat Advantage'? Which color? Does he buy bigger beads for Giants or Dragons?

I wonder how many times a DM has to answer a player's "Which condition does this base/bead/die signify?"-question in combat. You might provide everyone with a reference sheet, but it takes time to memorize it by heart (and you typically only memorize those things which only concern your character anyway).

With these additional layers they're going to spend more time on their action than in 3E. Anyway, that's how I see it.

I doubt it. It's very simple and easy to pick up stacking or other kinds of beads (such as those found at BeadsAndSupplies.com/) at any craft store or WalMart and you really don't need all *that* many different ones.

Lets face it, there are a whole host of players who use Tokens in Iron Heroes who seem to deal with these things just fine.

 

[hossrex]

That still doesn't work. So long as the marked target tries to attack the marker, he doesn't suffer the penalties. He also will not suffer the penalties if he choses not to attack at all.

Ok, I don't know that for sure, but, that's exactly how the knight works.

So, marking and running doesn't actually work. The markee doesn't suffer anything per round unless he tries to attack someone else. Presumably marks end at the end of an encounter, so, worst case scenario, it winds up a draw with the marker and markee both withdrawing.

Actually, that's a pretty easy fix, although not mentioned in the text. Marking is a swift action that lasts 1 round. Done. Now it does not help the paladin at all to not be attacking the target since he cannot mark without attacking.

Unless the potential incident in question is actually what people have suggested (instead of how you seem to have misinterpreted what people have suggested), where the Paladin marks an enemy, and his buddies wail on him while he's having major troubles hitting them, while also taking holy damage at every strike.

He could of course not attack... but then he would die from the party.

Remember... this game isn't one PC versus one NPC. Its mob versus party.

 

[ruemere]

Summarizing:

1. There are Martial and Divine Marks confirmed (possible other Mark types: Arcane, Psionic).

2. Mark is a type of challenge for a singled individual to either attack Mark source or attack other targets and suffer cosequences.

2. Issue of Mark recipient abstaining from attacking is not covered by the article.
Example of abuse: trusted ally uses his Mark ability to remove Mark from his boss in order to free boss from danger or to allow boss to perform other actions. Trusted ally is also free to not to use Mark-related abilities on his boss.

3. Issue of Mark recipient performing action types other than physical melee attacks is not covered by article.
Examples of actions which may be unhindered by Marked condition: Spellcasting, magic item use, abstaining from attacking.

4. Marks from different power sources can overwrite each other. Divine and Martial powers are thus proven to interact and because of that fact, Martial power source is proven to be magical in nature (or magical vs nonmagical sacred cow issue is removed from D&D system, as it loses its meaning).

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Ulthwithian]

Well, with the clarifications, I think concerns about Marking should be lessened.

I _am_ surprised that they chose to go with overwriting marks. My personal choice (based on what we have) would be to have a creature with multiple marks only suffer penalties (but all of them) if he does not engage any of the marking creatures. Of course, that is even less defensible from an in-game perspective IMO but the actual mechanics would seem to make more sense.

A little off-topic, but aren't the Devils that the Pit Fiend can summon in 4E Soldiers? If so, that guy's going to hurt _even more_ if those guys can mark you.