Stacking question

[Greenfield]

This relates to the Bracers of Armor thread. Hopefully it will be a bit less rancorous.

Consider this scenario: Robes enchanted with the Clerical Spell of Magic Vestment have an Armor value of zero, plus the Enhancement value of the spell.

Bracers of Armor grant an Armor value, not an Enhancement value.

Would the two bonuses stack, since they're different types?

(I know what I'd say as a DM, but I'm suddenly unsure if my reflexive refusal would be the right call, by the rules.)

 

[xigbar]

In general, two different types of bonuses almost always stack, unless specified otherwise.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I'd allow the greatest of the two values. So, no, no stacking. Both are armor, magic vestments is an enhancement to the armor value of the clothes.

 

[anest1s]

I am not an expert....but I can't see why not?

Edit: Actually, a Magic Vestment non-cloth armor would give armor+enchantment bonus. Then that armor bonus wouldn't stack with a higher armor bonus from bracers, but the enchantment would stack. Am I wrong somewhere?

 

[Greenfield]

That would imply, though, that my +2 Leather Armor, which has a +2 Armor bonus and a +2 Enhancement bonus, would add +2 to the AC of Bracers of Armor +6.

That is, while the armor bonuses wouldn't stack, the Enhancement bonus of the armor would still stack with the Armor bonus of the Bracers.

That's the step that chokes the horse, as I see it.

Am I seeing it wrong?

 

[xigbar]

I'd allow the greatest of the two values. So, no, no stacking. Both are armor, GMW is an enhancement to the armor value of the clothes.

Yes, they're both armor bonuses, but it's like the difference between an inherent bonus to a stat, and an enhancement bonus; They stack, as one is naturally occuring, and a permanent increase, where the other is just further advancing the prior advancement. Or, in this case, the bracers are an armor bonus (like any other armor, in some ways) whereas the spell is an actual enhancement. Hence, natural occurence (the bracers are just armor) vs. enhancement (spell effects.)

 

[Vespucci]

Yes, they're both armor bonuses, but it's like the difference between an inherent bonus to a stat, and an enhancement bonus; They stack, as one is naturally occuring, and a permanent increase, where the other is just further advancing the prior advancement. Or, in this case, the bracers are an armor bonus (like any other armor, in some ways) whereas the spell is an actual enhancement. Hence, natural occurence (the bracers are just armor) vs. enhancement (spell effects.)

The Enhancement bonus type is slightly confusing. Turning to the SRD:

An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score.
​

What that means is that the Enhancement bonus from Magic Vestment isn't applied to the character at all, because it's an enhancement to the armor - the clothes. The clothes go from having an Armor bonus of +0 to an Armor bonus of X, while the Bracers of Armor retain their Armor bonus of Y. Use whichever of X and Y is higher - these are both Armor bonuses, and overlap.

Note that the contrary interpretation, that the bonus retains its Enhancement type would mean that you can't stack the bonuses from magic Armor, magic Shields, and Barkskin. There are plenty of game examples where these bonuses do stack.

The players may follow up with a request to use Magic Vestment on the Bracers themselves. Normal interpretations of the rules say that you can't do this, but it isn't a big problem to allow it. (i.e. It doesn't lead to strange conclusions about other aspects of the game: it will lead to players assuming that Bracers of Armor are fair game for most other armor modifying magic.)

 

[anest1s]

An enchantment bonus on a shield would stack with an enchantment bonus on an armor....this means you can cast magic vestment on your shield and on your armor...and it would stack? Haven't thought it like that before...

 

[Vespucci]

An enchantment bonus on a shield would stack with an enchantment bonus on an armor....this means you can cast magic vestment on your shield and on your armor...and it would stack? Haven't thought it like that before...

Chainmail +1 has a +1 enhancement bonus, making its Armor bonus +6. A Heavy Steel Shield +1 has a +1 enhancement bonus, making its Shield bonus +3. I am absolutely certain that you've stacked bonuses in this way before.

Magic Vestment works in the same way as permanent enchantment (and overlaps with it).

 

[Greenfield]

Barkskin is a Natural Armor bonus, which is distinct from Enhancement or Armor bonuses.

And a shield is one specific exception to the stacking rules, in that it grants an Armor bonus that stacks with Armor (but not with the Armor bonus from Bracers of Armor). Looking to that as proof of stacking rules is weak on the face of it.

There are other bonuses that can be added to armor or shields, such as Luck, Divine or Profane that would stack with both Armor and/or Enhancement bonuses. Simply because something adds to a suit of armor's total value doesn't make it an Armor bonus.

Note: As I said in my first post, my own gut-level reaction would be to say no, they don't stack, but the letter of the rules seems to suggest otherwise.

As far as Magic Vestment being cast on both armor and shield... I wouldn't allow the spell to stack with itself. No matter how we try to twist it, that one is explicitly forbidden.