Staggered

[Water Bob]

This idea was inspired by my non-lethal damage thread. The "staggered" condition that affects people who have HP = Nonlethal damage is something that might be useful in the game, even without nonlethal damage.

Isn't it strange that a character with 1 HP is just as healthy and mobile and effective as he is when he's got all of his hit points?

And, then...bam...one hit point of damage makes him unconscious or completely ineffective?

Does this reflect real life?

Well, sorta...sometimes...but not all the time.





What if there was a "buffer" in there that produced another result--wound effects that make the character alert and playable, but not fully capable as if he were fully fit with all hit points.

So...

Why not use the "staggered" effect when a character is reduced to just a few hit points? Or...what about making him staggered at just a few points past 0 hp?

This could be some function of CON, or maybe 10% of the character's total hp, or even a function of his level.







Here's a sketch of an idea. It will need work, but let's see what you think of the kernel.

We'll have to consider a good rule for the "staggered" point, but for the sake of this moment, let's say we settle on 10% of normal hit points.

A character has 20 hp. If reduced to a number of hp = 1-19, the character acts normally. If reduced 0, -1, or -2 hp, the character is considered "staggered". If reduced to -3 hp or worse, then the character is unconscious and dying normally.

This idea actually has some precedent in the 1E AD&D DMG. I remember something Gygax wrote about -1 or -3 hp. I'll need to look that up.

But, adding this in allows a character to still be alert and fighting in the combat but suffering effects from wounds.

What are your thoughts?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I like the idea of expanding the staggered condition. I also like the idea of expanding the diabled condition (at exactly 0 hit points, can only take one action and anything strenuous hurts), it seemed too cinematic to limit to the rare circumstance of being reduced to exactly 0. How to do this and still make Diehard be a worthwhile feat I'm not sure.

As for your idea about hitting staggered at a certain % of hp...I'd just be wary of having the unintended consequence of making hard hitting tactics (nova-ing) the first round of the fight even more lucrative, by adding the chance that even if you don't outright kill the guy, you'll knock him down enough to severely cripple his ability to fight back. Certainly realistic, but might not be fun game-wise. Also a bit unfair because the core rules lack any real sense of a defense/counterattack mechanism to punish people who let their guard down too much when they attack.

I don't think it'd be an issue if the threshold was 10% of max hp, I'm just saying don't make it much higher than that.

 

[Jack Simth]

I like the idea of expanding the staggered condition. I also like the idea of expanding the diabled condition (at exactly 0 hit points, can only take one action and anything strenuous hurts), it seemed too cinematic to limit to the rare circumstance of being reduced to exactly 0. How to do this and still make Diehard be a worthwhile feat I'm not sure.

As for your idea about hitting staggered at a certain % of hp...I'd just be wary of having the unintended consequence of making hard hitting tactics (nova-ing) the first round of the fight even more lucrative, by adding the chance that even if you don't outright kill the guy, you'll knock him down enough to severely cripple his ability to fight back. Certainly realistic, but might not be fun game-wise. Also a bit unfair because the core rules lack any real sense of a defense/counterattack mechanism to punish people who let their guard down too much when they attack.

I don't think it'd be an issue if the threshold was 10% of max hp, I'm just saying don't make it much higher than that.

The effect is usually called 'The Death Spiral' for that kind of thing. If you're at -1 to all rolls when you drop below 50% HP, -2 to all rolls when you drop below 25% HP, and -3 to all rolls when you drop below 10% HP, then yes, you've got a problem: Luck plays a much larger factor in battle. For NPC opponents, that's not a bad thing - they're disposable - but for players, it usually gets annoying (for most play styles, anyway; some people don't care if they're writing up a new character every other session).

A 10% rule wouldn't be too bad - and you'll have better luck selling it if it also means that those in the slight negatives can continue to act (if at a hefty penalty).

 

[Water Bob]

The kernel of the idea is to have something between I-Just-Slept-At-A-Holiday-Inn and ready-for-the-grave. Not exactly sure how those mechanics will work out, though.

Do we want someone with 80 hp to have a staggered threshold at 0 to -8?

As mentioned, we do want to keep the Die Hard Feat worthwhile.

I like the idea of expanding 0 hp Disabled condition, too. Healthy --> Staggered --> Disabled/Stable --> Unconscious/Dying makes a good progression.

The questions is: How do you mechanically implement the range for Staggered and the other conditions?





Check out what Gygax wrote about hit points on page 82 of the 1E AD&D DMG. He describes different stages of wounds and what -3 hp means vs. being reduced to -6 hp.

We could use what the creator said as a guidepost.

 

[Veven1290]

In my E6 game we've been using the house rule that you die at the negative of your Con score instead of just a flat -10 for everyone. I did some quick math and i think the ideas would fit well together.

A Wizard with 14 Con has an average of 27 hp at lvl 6 (just using 6 because of E6). I'll just round that up to 30 for simplicity's sake. This wizard is staggered from 0 to -3 hp and then unconscious/disabled from -4 to -13, death at -14.

A Barbarian with 18 con has an average of 63 hp at lvl 6. This barbarian is staggered at 0 to -6 hp and then unconscious/disabled from -7 to -17, death at -18.

Obviously the rolls wont be perfectly average in an actual game but you still have about 10 hp between walking around and being dead instead of (like with the 80hp example) being alright at -8 and then dead 2 hp later. This setup still doesn't fix the diehard issue though.

Another problem it has is that it stops working at higher levels. A lvl 20 barbarian with a Con of 26 has an average of 290 hp so they would go straight from staggered to dead with no disabled condition in between.

It obviously needs to be tested but it might work in an E6 or low-level campaign.

 

[Water Bob]

A Wizard with 14 Con has an average of 27 hp at lvl 6 (just using 6 because of E6). I'll just round that up to 30 for simplicity's sake. This wizard is staggered from 0 to -3 hp and then unconscious/disabled from -4 to -13, death at -14.

That's not a bad idea at all. It's worth looking at.

I like that it errs on the side of keeping PCs alive longer.

Your concerns need to be address, though, of course.

 

[Tovec]

As to Veven1290's comments...
What about capping the it at -10 (10% of 100) instead of a flat 10% of ANY HP total.
Assuming the character has a CON higher than 10 it should work fine, shouldn't it?

Personally I care less about how to get the condition than what the condition means. What does Staggered mean?

 

[Veven1290]

As to Veven1290's comments...
What about capping the it at -10 (10% of 100) instead of a flat 10% of ANY HP total.
Assuming the character has a CON higher than 10 it should work fine, shouldn't it?

Personally I care less about how to get the condition than what the condition means. What does Staggered mean?

Another good idea! so much play-testing to be done.

And in regards to Staggered, to quote the SRD,"Staggered
A character whose nonlethal damage exactly equals his current hit points is staggered. A staggered character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can she take full-round actions).

A character whose current hit points exceed his nonlethal damage is no longer staggered; a character whose nonlethal damage exceeds his hit points becomes unconscious."

obviously under the system being discussed the qualifier would be different.

 

[Water Bob]

This idea shoud go in another thread, but what about taking the staggered condition and making it the resut of a particulary powerful hit?

It would be kind of like a Critical Threat. Or, maybe it's an option instead of doing extra damage when a Critical is thrown.

...so, instead of doing extra damage, the blow would cause the target to be staggered for a round (maybe longer? ...just thinking out of the box, here).

Or...maybe it's part of the critical hit. For example, a Critical is thrown. If the damage is more than the target's CON score, then the target is also staggered for one round.

Thoughts?

 

[Tovec]

Thoughts?

I like the idea of staggered for a critical, it doesn't make it debilitating, necessarily, but it might (partially) take someone out of the fight for a round instead of just making it more damage and that's it. I would also say only a round staggered, regardless of the crit. I would also suggesting that they can do certain full round actions, like total defense or full withdrawal in that round. If not it can get out of hand with a super-crit character (15-20 anyone).

I would avoid like the plague the idea of being staggered at taking more damage than my CON score, especially if that number is close to 10 and fighting a barbarian or fighter who got a lucky hit.


To Veven1290: I didn't realize we meant we were going with the traditional form of staggered given its new application. I thought a new form might have been applied - not sure why I thought this upon re-reading.