Standard DM behavior?

The "but the reward is chosen by the player, not the DM" bit might seem to suggest that player choice does not enter the picture except with the dissociated "pick from a book" method.
Fair enough, although, thinking about it further, most if not all campaigns are the result of the complex interplay between player choices and DM decisions, and depending on how the DM decides to run things, player choice can have a greater or lesser effect on the outcome. Ceteris paribus, players choosing their own rewards would fall on the "greater effect" end of the spectrum.
Yeah, I do that by actually directing my activities toward reaching that point. Doesn't a paladin get benefits enough for just racking up levels? Keep removing objectives, and even gaining levels will become just another entitlement for "time served".

Oh, yeah. Some folks are there already (or maybe, per the 4e DMG, getting levels for time absent).
I would say that gaining levels even if the character is absent is still fairly close to the "magic item as part of evolving concept" style of gaming, because the gratification is still not instant. A certain amount of real-world time will still have to elapse before the player gets to play a high-level paladin. Even if the DM doesn't bother with XP and simply states that every character gains a level after every session, the player will still have to play through (or wait out) more than twenty sessions before he gets his holy avenger!
 

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I think that's only part of the story. Another part is the idea that character concept isn't really universally perceived as a curve that begins with scrappy underdog and might or might not eventually become a potent hero. Sometimes a concept is more akin to 5th or 10th or 15th or higher. If you've ever seen someone say "I don't want to play six months to eventually get the character I have in my head, I want to start the game playing the character I have in my head right now," you've seen that difference in perspective.

Consider the difference between magic item as reward, and magic item as part of character concept. To really understand the difference, you have to utterly divorce the two. Someone who has a magic item as part of a character concept is not trying to game the system to get rewards without "earning them" — the magic item just isn't a reward in the first place. It's considered part of the concept, as much as being 3rd level might be part of a character concept for a game that begins at 3rd level. While starting play with a magic item or being guaranteed a particular item in the near future may be antithetical to the concept of magic as rewards, it isn't even close if the game in question doesn't limited magic items to the campaign role of rewards.

I think saying that video games and the like have conditioned people toward "instant gratification" misses the point, a bit. The most competitive bit of quick gratification that video games have over tabletop RPGs is the ability to start playing more quickly: to be having fun within 5 minutes of getting your game home. Beyond that, "instant gratification" may mean you get nice loot within minutes or an hour of playing — but it may also mean that you're playing someone as brutally skilled as Kratos, as nimble as the Prince of Persia, or with as kickass a weapon as Soul Calibur right from the start. And even borrowing from literature, some people might want to play someone so strong he was strangling serpents while he was still in his crib. Or to start play as Colossus without having to work your way up from Fabulous Frog-Man.

Is the ability to start with a stronger character concept something D&D has borrowed from other sources? Yeah, probably; but in a way, I think that's just D&D trying to expand its paradigm. "Start at first level" wasn't really ever the dominant story model in fantasy literature or myth. It was certainly present, but only in D&D is it prevalent enough that you see people noting that it might be unusual to start strong in the first place.

I can see your point; it's not an uncommon concept in fantasy literature or contemporary RPGs to feature protagonists who're more powerful -- some of them even legendary (such as many manga books, for example). And therefore I'm not claiming computer or video games are the only influence which has "conditioned" people towards "instant gratification"; I do, however, believe that they're the biggest reason why some people are reluctant to play if you must start as a dirt-poor farmer's son taking his first steps on the road towards heroism. BTW, I tried to play 'God of War', but I found it to be quite frustrating... whatever buttons I kept hitting apparently mattered very little, as Kratos seemed to be handling the game for me (except for those "boss" or "elite" monsters that required a quick "combo" too fast for my poor old eyes and reflexes).

Personally, I prefer the growth story; I've always found that playing out the whole process -- all the steps to glory and fame -- is ultimately far more satisfying than building and equipping a 15th or 20th level character straight from the books. And, in fantasy literature I also prefer the bildungsroman in which the protagonist(s) grow to become hero(es) as the story slowly progresses (BTW, even if myths feature superhuman protagonists, they're often flawed and tragic characters with ultimate weaknesses; something which D&D doesn't handle well). If I want to play superhumans right from the start, I think a lot of the superhero RPGs are a more natural fit than D&D (especially for playing Colossus ;)).

There *are* well-designed RPGs that feature mythical protagonists; Amber DRPG, Agon, and Nine Worlds are in my opinion all good examples of such games. They're more "narrativist", however, than "gamist", and power and glory in them often comes at a price. These are also games in which mythic or legendary items are often strongly part of the original character concept (Corwin's sword Grayswandir, for example) rather than typical magic item rewards, just as you said above (I'm all fine with that; we've had several Amber campaigns). In fact, personal items/worldss/allies/minions/etcetera are surprisingly often what Firelance calls "evolving rewards", i.e. they develop and grow in power as you do.

While it may be true that it's more uncommon to have "farmer's-son-fulfilling-his-destiny" than a mythically powerful character as a protagonist in fantasy, many well-known series (e.g. LoTR, Eragon, and Wheel of Time) *do* portray "1st level" heroes as well (although undeniably exceptional and "destined-for-greatness"). However, except for Howard's stories (Kull and Conan), I cannot think of a mythically-powerful protagonist who wasn't a tragic figure ultimately brought down by his/her own hubris, flaw or betrayal (Elric, Achilles, Beowulf and so on).

As I said, I can understand your point about being able to jump into the game -- this may be natural evolution for games in the contemporary society. However, I don't personally find it to be satisfactory or fun to be able to play Kratos or Samson or Thor right from the start. Different strokes and all, I guess.
 

It has been the default in every official D&D edition I have seen, from the little brown books to 4e. It's in the Dungeon! board game and similar ones, and has been taken for granted in most other fantasy RPGs. After 35 years, I think "long proven" is a fair characterization.

The assertion that it cannot work in a game of high adventure seems to me not only pompous and dismissive but utterly absurd as contra-factual on the face.

I have offered nothing remotely like that assessment of the "just pick it from a book" method.

Falsely accusing me of having done what you are presently doing is a poor plan. Even if the claim were true, it would founder on the observation that two wrongs do not make a right.

WTH?! Have you actually read any of my posts? I have NOT said there is the standard way to play. I have NOT dismissed and belittled anyone's style of play. I have NOT gone on and on with "kids these days" kinds of rants.

I HAVE said there are a multitude of ways to play the game, that they have existed from the start of the game, and that they are all valid and fun ways to play. I am one of the "kids these days" you rant about, yet I've played the game for over two-and-a-half decades. You make nothing but assumptions about how people play based on your personal experience instead of being open to the multitude of different ways people enjoy the game.
 

And therefore I'm not claiming computer or video games are the only influence which has "conditioned" people towards "instant gratification"; I do, however, believe that they're the biggest reason why some people are reluctant to play if you must start as a dirt-poor farmer's son taking his first steps on the road towards heroism.
I kinda see this from the opposite perspective: traditional D&D play has conditioned gamers to believe it's proper to start as poor dirt farmers, progress through various levels of competence, and end up as Big Damn Heroes (or antiheroes). This is considered normal for D&D, despite the fact that it isn't particular faithful to a lot the game's source literature (ie, the pulp side), which weren't bildungsromans, which didn't focus on the Heroes Journey from Zero to Hero, rather they started with fully competent heroic protagonists.

Personally, I prefer the growth story; I've always found that playing out the whole process -- all the steps to glory and fame -- is ultimately far more satisfying than building and equipping a 15th or 20th level character straight from the books.
I generally prefer this too. But my preference doesn't imply people with different preferences have been damaged by video games (or comics, or the swine-flu vaccine, etc.)

And let me offer a counter-theory (pulled out of my rump) as to why some gamers today seem to prefer more rapid gratification and an increased ability to customize their characters (hint: it has nothing to do with video games but it does have to do with age).

The average gamer is older today. Therefore they have more real-world responsibilities (family, career, etc.), and less time to game. The days of playing 52 (or more) sessions a year to maybe achieve 9th level are over for a lot of us. We have less time to experience the game's content, therefore we desire more rapid advance and greater freedom to customize our characters.

Seems reasonable, at least for a segment of the D&D audience, eh?

... many well-known series (e.g. LoTR, Eragon, and Wheel of Time) *do* portray "1st level" heroes as well
This is kinda an aside, but what makes you think any of the protagonists of the LotR would accurately represented by 1st level D&D characters? The fact the hobbits survived the attack by the Nazgul on Weathertop suggests to me that they'd be slightly higher level...
 

I can see your point; it's not an uncommon concept in fantasy literature or contemporary RPGs to feature protagonists who're more powerful -- some of them even legendary (such as many manga books, for example).

It's interesting to follow manga back, actually: modern fight manga derives a lot from kung fu movies, which are themselves derived from kung fu novels, which themselves follow on from classics like Journey to the West, Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Outlaws of the Marsh, which themselves borrow a lot from oral traditions. Humility is a big virtue in many of those stories, as it is over here, but it's often applied to attitude but not to power.

And therefore I'm not claiming computer or video games are the only influence which has "conditioned" people towards "instant gratification"; I do, however, believe that they're the biggest reason why some people are reluctant to play if you must start as a dirt-poor farmer's son taking his first steps on the road towards heroism.

I don't know if it's so much that computer and video games are the reason, mostly because it's hard to say how much is the influence of one thing and how much is the lack of influence of another. In the early 80s or so, dirt-poor farmer's sons were the dominant RPG paradigm. Even Champions and the like would start out awfully tender in point value compared to what you saw in the comics. Gradually, though, you started seeing more games where you started out closer to what you'd eventually end up as, such as the WoD games.

It's very hard to actually tell, of course. But I can't help but wonder just how much of the shift is due to outside influences gaining dominance, and how much is due to the "start lowly, end heroically" play style just not having the same sort of first-to-the-market, duplicated-by-all status it used to. I suspect it's a mix of the two and of other factors I may not be tracking, but it's damn hard to tell.

And, in fantasy literature I also prefer the bildungsroman in which the protagonist(s) grow to become hero(es) as the story slowly progresses (BTW, even if myths feature superhuman protagonists, they're often flawed and tragic characters with ultimate weaknesses; something which D&D doesn't handle well).

Well, technically one would hope that the protagonists who start humble and those who don't all have sufficient flaws and weaknesses to make them interesting. But I quite sympathize. I tend to be more eclectic in my preferences, but I'd be unhappy if I didn't have the Prydain Chronicles and Lord of the Rings to sit alongside my copies of Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell, and Orlando Furioso. I enjoy a humble protagonist as much as anyone.

While it may be true that it's more uncommon to have "farmer's-son-fulfilling-his-destiny" than a mythically powerful character as a protagonist in fantasy, many well-known series (e.g. LoTR, Eragon, and Wheel of Time) *do* portray "1st level" heroes as well (although undeniably exceptional and "destined-for-greatness"). However, except for Howard's stories (Kull and Conan), I cannot think of a mythically-powerful protagonist who wasn't a tragic figure ultimately brought down by his/her own hubris, flaw or betrayal (Elric, Achilles, Beowulf and so on).

I wouldn't call Beowulf brought down by flaws or hubris; "betrayal" maybe, but he fought the dragon out of duty and bravery, really. To Howard's figures I'd add Ruggiero, Bradamante, Orlando and Astolfo from the Italian romances, Sun Wukong and assorted company from Journey to the West. The real question is "is this a story where we get the 'happily ever after', or is it a tragedy?" Power level may or may not attach to that; the Orlando romances have happy endings, Arthurian stories don't. Journey to the West ends with everyone becoming Buddhas and Outlaws of the Marsh ends with the heroic bandits mostly slaughtered. LotR and Prydain end with the decided mixed blessing of magic leaving the world. D&D tends to try for happy endings,

As I said, I can understand your point about being able to jump into the game -- this may be natural evolution for games in the contemporary society. However, I don't personally find it to be satisfactory or fun to be able to play Kratos or Samson or Thor right from the start. Different strokes and all, I guess.

That's what it all comes down to. I just tend to suspect that the desire to start stronger isn't a new thing. I also wonder if it isn't partly because the start-low-end-high model was "unusually" strong during the nascent days of RPGs because that's what the biggest and first-to-market game was doing. But like I say, it's all theoretical.
 

Vyvyan Bastard said:
I am one of the "kids these days" you rant about

Oh it would be the most if you would read the posts
You could think of things more tangible than ghosts
And you could think before you post

It would not just be a nuffin
A load of huffy puffin
A figure made of straw

Heck, maybe you could even come up with something of substance to discuss, rather than attacking people?
 

And therefore I'm not claiming computer or video games are the only influence which has "conditioned" people towards "instant gratification";

I blame sitcoms. Any problem in the world can be solved in 30 minutes less commercials, and everyone starts off happy next week. When 5e introduces the "Wacky Neighbor" class, you'll see me for the genius I am. ;)
 

But my preference doesn't imply people with different preferences have been damaged by video games

I've recently been getting on Ebay a lot trying to find anyone selling a 20th level cleric for D&D 3.5. I thought I got lucky and found a good deal on one that came with a house in Sigil and had a big stash of loot, but when I went to pick up the character sheet from the guys house, he never answered the door...I think I got scammed.
 

I've recently been getting on Ebay a lot trying to find anyone selling a 20th level cleric for D&D 3.5...
Okay, okay... some people have been damaged by video games... but, more seriously, you're really talking about a very specific phenomena here --the private sale of MMORPG assets between players for real money-- that demonstrates my point.

The people paying good money for someone else's WoW character have 1) a fair amount of disposable income and 2) not enough time to actually play the game themselves. In other words, they are most likely to be successful professional adults (the only person I know who's done this is a commodities trader IRL). His desire for 'instant/rapid gratification' was the result of his lack of leisure time.
 
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