Spoilers Star Wars: Andor season 2

[Ruin Explorer]

as we see a lot more that don't

Unproven assumption. Not much more so say, but that's what that is.

Unless you're counting the vast droid armies destroyed in Episode 1-3, but then the clones also behave like they don't have free will, all throwing themselves straight into the meat-grinder. We don't see any clones do any questioning at all until much later, and hell, Order 66 shows even clones don't have free will if you just install a device to override it - just like droids!

 

[Zardnaar]

Unproven assumption. Not much more so say, but that's what that is.

Unless you're counting the vast droid armies destroyed in Episode 1-3, but then the clones also behave like they don't have free will, all throwing themselves straight into the meat-grinder. We don't see any clones do any questioning at all until much later, and hell, Order 66 shows even clones don't have free will if you just install a device to override it - just like droids!

Yeah clones are essentially meat droids.

ANH though we see drouds being sold. Labor droids, walking batteries etc. Mouse droids as well.

It's really only the side kick droids that are the exceptions. And the Solo movie one. That's maybe 5 droids of which 3 are astromechs. And C3-PO it's dubious if he has true free will. And it's not always clear the rest have free will.

 

[Voadam]

ANH though we see drouds being sold.

I am not sure what difference that makes that you are trying to demonstrate here. Labor droids are sold. C-3PO and R2D2 are sold. Clones are commissioned. Humanoid slaves are sold.

I mean even the little mouse droid on the Death Star had enough of a mind to act scared of Chewbacca growling at it and react accordingly instead of continuing on with its task.

 

[Zardnaar]

I am not sure what difference that makes that you are trying to demonstrate here. Labor droids are sold. C-3PO and R2D2 are sold. Clones are commissioned. Humanoid slaves are sold.

I mean even the little mouse droid on the Death Star had enough of a mind to act scared of Chewbacca growling at it and react accordingly instead of continuing on with its task.

Woukd you let a mouse droid vote though? There's not enough information on scree to make that distinction.

Some droids have self preservation. Is that sapient or programing though?

They can mimic humans up to a point . Their programming allows that.

I'm arguing that a Droid would need to be self aware and be capable of independent thought.

Why I'm using voting as a metric see controversy about voting machines.

If a Droid lacks trueself awareness they couldn't vote. If they can't vote die to possible programming or hacked they're not sentient as we would define it.

It's a clever machine. Sone smart ones can learn on screen. Truly independent though they would have to be able to transcend their programming. Onscreen we don't really know that there's maybe 5 Contenders we see.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Woukd you let a mouse droid vote though? There's not enough information on scree to make that distinction.

Some droids have self preservation. Is that sapient or programing though?

They can mimic humans up to a point . Their programming allows that.

I'm arguing that a Droid would need to be self aware and be capable of independent thought.

Why I'm using voting as a metric see controversy about voting machines.

If a Droid lacks trueself awareness they couldn't vote. If they can't vote die to possible programming or hacked they're not sentient as we would define it.

It's a clever machine. Sone smart ones can learn on screen. Truly independent though they would have to be able to transcend their programming. Onscreen we don't really know that there's maybe 5 Contenders we see.

In other words, you hate the idea that the good guys in Star Wars are slave owners and will twist the available data in any way you can to make it not so.

 

[chuckdee]

In other words, you hate the idea that the good guys in Star Wars are slave owners and will twist the available data in any way you can to make it not so.

Thinking about this - Lucas even makes it pretty transparent on screen in the first Star Wars movie (Ep IV: A New Hope).

The Jawa droid setup looked akin to a traveling slave market. And they tortured R2-D2 to get the restraining bolt on. Also the scene with the R5(?) unit hanging upside down and being tortured. This seems an intentional equivalence, and even though a lot of Luke's dialog with C3PO and R2 in the beginning is downplayed, a lot of it is very much the same dialog used with slaves.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Thinking about this - Lucas even makes it pretty transparent on screen in the first Star Wars movie (Ep IV: A New Hope).

The Jawa droid setup looked akin to a traveling slave market. And they tortured R2-D2 to get the restraining bolt on. Also the scene with the R5(?) unit hanging upside down and being tortured. This seems an intentional equivalence, and even though a lot of Luke's dialog with C3PO and R2 in the beginning is downplayed, a lot of it is very much the same dialog used with slaves.

Star Wars was based on Hidden Fortress, which used a pair of comic slaves as its viewpoint characters.

 

[billd91]

Star Wars was based on Throne of Blood, which used a pair of comic slaves as it’s viewpoint characters.

I think you mean The Hidden Fortress. Throne of Blood is Macbeth.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I think you mean The Hidden Fortress. Throne of Blood is Macbeth.

Ah, quite right, thanks for the spot, I’ll edit my post.

 

[chuckdee]

So why is this even a point of controversy? In my particular post, I was just talking about peerage and automatic peerage based on sapience. I never spoke to the slavery, because it seemed quite evident.