D&D 4E Star Wars Saga Edition as preview of 4e?

[Turjan]

Why? A newcomer to the game taking 3 weeks to fully flesh out a high-level PC doesn't sound off to me. Heck, it still takes us about an hour to create 1st level characters (with most of the time taken for spell selection, feat selection, and skill point allocation) - of course, one of my players is horrible with point-based systems and spends an ungodly length of time dithering over whether he's going to put one point into Perform(The Spoons) or two - and he always plays a Rogue or Bard when he makes a D&D character, so that probably colors my experiences somewhat.**

I experience this problem with my best friends. They are complete gaming nuts, but they refuse to play D&D. They actually liked the game very much, but they don't want to cope with the overhead. They want to play the game, not spend hours pouring through options.

For them, a simpler alternative is a must. Perhaps, I'll try my luck with SWSE .

 

[Turjan]

I stopped playing a little over a year ago. I just sold my books on Ebay for more than what I paid for them new.

The prices for some of the WotC Star Wars books on Ebay were ridiculous. It's unfortunate I didn't have any of those for sale.

I'm also in the "d20 Star Wars was a big success" camp. All signs speak for this option.

 

[Desdichado]

Why?

What do you mean why? Why can I build a 16th level character in 15 minutes or less? Because it's not that difficult, I guess. Especially for a one-shot where agonizing over every detail is a waste of time. I don't understand why you're asking me why. I was in the process of asking the "it takes hours and hours to build a PC" crowd why.

A newcomer to the game taking 3 weeks to fully flesh out a high-level PC doesn't sound off to me. Heck, it still takes us about an hour to create 1st level characters (with most of the time taken for spell selection, feat selection, and skill point allocation) - of course, one of my players is horrible with point-based systems and spends an ungodly length of time dithering over whether he's going to put one point into Perform(The Spoons) or two - and he always plays a Rogue or Bard when he makes a D&D character, so that probably colors my experiences somewhat.**

Well, yeah--if you're wishy-washy and indecisive, it can take a long time. But in that case, don't blame the system.

** This player, and a few others like him who I play with, are why I'd love to see a simplified, reduced skill system in D&D. The point-based method gives him lots and lots of opportunity to spend time and energy filling out things that in the end are utterly meaningless to the game and to his character. I'd rather he spend that time fleshing out the character's background and personality than figuring out whether its best to put one point or two into a particular flavor skill.

Don't get me wrong; I would too. I'm all for this new system, and I may well adopt it as a houserule in other d20 games I use. :shrug:

But that isn't because it's taking me hours and hours to make characters.

 

[Delta]

That completely boggles my mind. Either you are playing in a manner so completely different to how I play that I can't even comprehend it, or something else is going on. I would never spend more than about half an hour or so making a character, even a complex one like a spellcaster.

And of course I'm equally and symmetrically boggled by claims such as yours. I can't for the life of me picture character creation in 15 minutes flat, and I'd love to see it in practice to know what's being left out. When I had a party of 5 new players make 1st-level characters in 3E, it took over 4 hours -- it simply takes all kinds of time to parse the dozens and dozens of abilities, races, classes, skills, feats, equipment, and spells in the PHB that must be selected. (Even with summary shortcut information sheets, and lots of pleading to "don't worry about this, don't worry about that" by myself.)

At any rate, I see that the WOTC designers have now established and are acting on exactly what my experiences have been like. It's the host of claims such as yours to the contrary that led me to be amazed when I saw WOTC agreeing with me in these Saga rules. I was seriously told many times on this issue that all of my friends & I must be completely deranged.

 

[Desdichado]

And of course I'm equally and symmetrically boggled by claims such as yours. I can't for the life of me picture character creation in 15 minutes flat, and I'd love to see it in practice to know what's being left out. When I had a party of 5 new players make 1st-level characters in 3E, it took over 4 hours -- it simply takes all kinds of time to parse the dozens and dozens of abilities, races, classes, skills, feats, equipment, and spells in the PHB that must be selected. (Even with summary shortcut information prepared by myself.)

Well, sure--if you're brand new to the game and don't already know what the classes and races are like, I can see it taking much more time. I don't have to spend time parsing the races classes, equipment, etc. because I already know them well enough to know what I want when I build a character. I thought it was a given that in making a character at this point, I'm not reading the entire races, classes, feats and skills chapters in the PHB over again. I'm also not counting time spent sitting around being wishy-washy and indecisive. Because I'm not.

I think it's funny that you assume that I must be leaving something out though. It's times like this that I really miss the rolleyes smilie.

 

[VictorC]

I was seriously told many times on this issue that all of my friends & I must be completely deranged.

Deranged, no... Unnaturally slow, apparently.

 

[Reynard]

Well, sure--if you're brand new to the game and don't already know what the classes and races are like, I can see it taking much more time. I don't have to spend time parsing the races classes, equipment, etc. because I already know them well enough to know what I want when I build a character. I thought it was a given that in making a character at this point, I'm not reading the entire races, classes, feats and skills chapters in the PHB over again. I'm also not counting time spent sitting around being wishy-washy and indecisive. Because I'm not.

What I think makes people incredulous is the other side of high level character generation: spells and/or magical gear selection.

I mean, assuming core (and a decent idea of what I wanted), I could probably put together a decent 15th level characters in 10 minutes. Add another 10 minutes if I want to root through a complete book or whatever. But that's just stats, skills, feats, classes, PrCs, and the like. If it is a spellcaster, I'd wager a *minimum* of 30 minutes more, and probably more like an hour. Then there's gear. You can burn through 50-75% of your wealth with a few good old standard items -- weapons, armor, stat buffers -- but the rest, you actually have to think about. What are the other characters? What potions do I need to replace missing abilities? What scolls for spells I didn't prep? Where am I weak? What kind of adventure is this going to be? What kind of threats I am going to face.

I would wager the whole process for creatinga high level PC with full gear and either a decent array of spells or a number of optional abilities is 2 or 3 hours for me -- and I could spend *a lot* more if I really wanted to get nitty and gritty.

Now, that's for a PC. If I want to creat a 16th level NPC villain, the process drops to 30 minutes to an hour, because the NPC has a very specific purpose and environment so it is easy to cruise through a lot of extraneous options. If the villain is a necromancer, 75% of your spells become non-issues, for example.

 

[GreatLemur]

I think we can all accept that D&D v.3.5 character creation can take a long-ass time if the character in question is going to be a fully kitted-out high-level spell-caster with access to non-core material, or if the player is new, or due to some combination of character complexity and player inexperience and/or indecision.

I think it's also clear that a reasonably experienced player can generate even a high-level character fairly quickly, if he or she has some idea of what the end result should look like, and intends to get it done in a hurry. Personally, I could screw around with even a 1st-level character for days, but that's me, and I dig poring through books looking for just the right feats and such. I know that if I was given a deadline, I could meet it.

Finally, I think a lot of us have probably noticed that certain elements of D&D's character generation system can really turn off some potential players. I love complexity, but it clearly scares off a lot of newbs, and it would be ridiculous to deny it.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

I can't for the life of me picture character creation in 15 minutes flat

Maybe not 15 minutes, but definately less than an hour.

If I was going to create a character for a brand new homegrown campaign I might spend hours pouring over books looking for fun combos. Rethinking a character concept in my head for weeks and emailing my DM ideas for background and asking him questions repeatedly (and likely driving him insane during the process). This process may start well before the old campaign ends and likely doesn't actually stop until we are afew levels into the new campaign.

(And yes, I love the character design aspect of the game, why do you ask?)


If I was going to create a character for a written campaign (either a series of different adventures or a single massive adventure) I'd likely drop the background aspect since that will have little to no effect on the story. I'd ask what everyone else is doing and focus on being the best of whatever it is I am. I'd still pour over books for fun combos but certain feats just won't work as well. What is the point of Landlord when we are in the middle of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft? This kind of character would likely be built over the course of a few days.

If I was going to build a character for a one-shot I'd ask what part of the standard party needs to be filled and I'll hop into that role. I'd take the basic feats/spells for whatever though if I knew some featf from other books off the top of my head I might use those. Nothing fancy, nothing to get attached to. While I'd want to survive the sesssion I' won't feel too bad if the character dies early (one shot, right?) Depending on the level I'd say anywhere from about an hour / hour and a half for high level play (mostly due to gear) to close to fifteen minutes for 1st or second level play.

 

[Gentlegamer]

I think we can all accept that D&D v.3.5 character creation can take a long-ass time if the character in question is going to be a fully kitted-out high-level spell-caster with access to non-core material, or if the player is new, or due to some combination of character complexity and player inexperience and/or indecision.

I think it's also clear that a reasonably experienced player can generate even a high-level character fairly quickly, if he or she has some idea of what the end result should look like, and intends to get it done in a hurry. Personally, I could screw around with even a 1st-level character for days, but that's me, and I dig poring through books looking for just the right feats and such. I know that if I was given a deadline, I could meet it.

Finally, I think a lot of us have probably noticed that certain elements of D&D's character generation system can really turn off some potential players. I love complexity, but it clearly scares off a lot of newbs, and it would be ridiculous to deny it.

The flip side of all this is the time it takes the DM to "thoroughly" stat out a higher level NPC. Lots of posters here have advocated "faking it" by just generating what is needed at the moment then filling in later. One reasone "faking it" is often needed is playing around with all the skill points. A skill system like Star Wars Saga Edition (SWSE) allows higher level characters to be generated without fudging or having to spend inordinate time parsing skill ranks (and then synergies, race bonuses, etc.). I think it's desirable to give the GM a "time break" on character generation.

So to dovetail your post, GreatLemur, I think easier character generation regarding skills is a net positive for all parties involved.