D&D 4E Star Wars Saga Edition as preview of 4e?

[Desdichado]

Yeah, not just "hardly scientific" but completely nonsensical. I did a few quick searches on Amazon and jotted down the sales rank just for fun:

• PHB 3.5 -- 2,038
• Star Wars Saga edition (preorders only, obviously) -- 3,605
• Star Wars Revised -- 42,902
• PHB 3e -- 30,061
• d20 Modern - 34,135
• Buffy RPG -- none

There are other factors contributing to the "noise" too--the games essentially been unsupported for over a year now, with much of it's product line out of print too. The prequels are done and over with, and they pretty much sucked, which contributes greatly to the market demand for the book.

On the other hand, WotC have expressed (IIRC) satisfaction with the sales performance of the book line, and I'd be really surprised if it's not well above what would be expected from any other printer doing any other licensed property. The only reason it's been unsupported recently is because the terms of the license only allow a certain amount of products to be released each year and the mini game products are much more profitable for WotC to make.

I suppose that could be considered a failure in some sense, but comparing an RPG product to a miniatures game product is hardly fair. Comparing Star Wars to any other RPG product other than D&D itself, which has always stood apart from the rest of the market--I'd bet it's one of the most successful RPG's ever printed. :shrug:

 

[Stalker0]

I'd say that levelling should be about getting better at everything you do. I don't really like the idea of characters getting better at stuff that's completely outside their whole concept and experience. A 20th level Wizard with "as good" in combat as a 10th level Figther is actually okay. Setting aside the obvious issue of the Fighter's superior pile of combat feats and weapon proficiencies, that Wizard is 20th freaking level, and combat is something that even Wizards have probably done a lot of by that point.

But consider this. A 20th level hunter gets as much knowledge of tech as a 1st level tech specialist (trained, skill foucs = 10). And he's 20th freaking level!! Its not like it scales so quickly that you become god of every skill.

 

[Desdichado]

Man, HP and XP have never made sense; everybody knows that. But tell me, what's wrong with the Wizards, BAB, and skills comparison? I'm not seeing how it doesn't work, here.

Because there's no reason for a wizards' BAB to go up.

To quibble, there are even better examples--why does an expert or a commoner's BAB go up as they level, but I don't see why a wizard's would either. It's just as nonsensical as hp going up with leveling, or skill check results going up or saves going up. :shrug:

 

[Desdichado]

Indeed... I'm amazed anyone could do it inside of 3 hours, actually. I had my smart roommate (but relative D&D newcomer) make a 16th level cleric for a game a year ago... and I watched as he struggled with it for 3 weeks before he was done. Core rules only. Mostly grappling with all the spells to prepare and all the magic items he could buy (which requires parsing every skill, feat, spell and magic item in the entire game before knowing what the options are).

That completely boggles my mind. Either you are playing in a manner so completely different to how I play that I can't even comprehend it, or something else is going on. I would never spend more than about half an hour or so making a character, even a complex one like a spellcaster.

 

[pawsplay]

Having read the skills preview for the Saga Edition, let me be the first to predict respectable sales figures followed by a gradual but not slow slide into the bargain bin.

Something has gone amiss.

 

[pawsplay]

The fact that it is on its second major revision, that the Revised Edition is ranked #42,730-ish on Amazon versus the D&D PHB's #2000-ish (or the DMG's #2800-ish) when 3 of the top 10 grossing films of all time are the Prequels, and that there are about 7 times the number of posts on the WotC forums for D&D as there are Star Wars (using the "general" categories of each game, not including Minis).

I know -- hardly scientific, but there you go. Plus, I personally don't know a single person that plays it or has played it in the last year. I know that is totally anecdotal, but there it is nonetheless.

I stopped playing a little over a year ago. I just sold my books on Ebay for more than what I paid for them new.

 

[GreatLemur]

But consider this. A 20th level hunter gets as much knowledge of tech as a 1st level tech specialist (trained, skill foucs = 10). And he's 20th freaking level!! Its not like it scales so quickly that you become god of every skill.

I'd say the hunter and tech skills compares more accurately to the Wizard and Open Lock than to the Wizard and BAB. Still, you're right: at 1/2 character level, it isn't a really big deal, so I'm pretty much okay with it.

Because there's no reason for a wizards' BAB to go up.

I'd argue that since Wizards use their attack bonus for crossbows and rays and such, a .5-per-level increase isn't wholly inappropriate. Depending on play style, they might use it a lot, or almost never, but it's reasonable to assume that the trait is relevant to the character class.

 

[Jer]

That completely boggles my mind. Either you are playing in a manner so completely different to how I play that I can't even comprehend it, or something else is going on. I would never spend more than about half an hour or so making a character, even a complex one like a spellcaster.

Why? A newcomer to the game taking 3 weeks to fully flesh out a high-level PC doesn't sound off to me. Heck, it still takes us about an hour to create 1st level characters (with most of the time taken for spell selection, feat selection, and skill point allocation) - of course, one of my players is horrible with point-based systems and spends an ungodly length of time dithering over whether he's going to put one point into Perform(The Spoons) or two - and he always plays a Rogue or Bard when he makes a D&D character, so that probably colors my experiences somewhat.**

Myself, I can create a high-level NPC in about a half hour if I use the templates in the DMG, about an hour if I do it all from scratch. Most of that is spent figuring out what magic items the NPC should have, what spells (for a spellcaster) and what feats (for a fighter-type). I tend to just throw max skill ranks at my NPCs in a few areas where they need them, and I tend to ignore/forget the niggly bonuses like synergy bonsues or whatnot - since I only tend to stat up NPCs that are going to be a challenge for the PCs in combat, those don't tend to be the skill-heavy types. (If my players pick fights with shopkeepers and bartenders they tend to win -- until the local Sherrif and his boys come around to teach them a lesson, at least.)

** This player, and a few others like him who I play with, are why I'd love to see a simplified, reduced skill system in D&D. The point-based method gives him lots and lots of opportunity to spend time and energy filling out things that in the end are utterly meaningless to the game and to his character. I'd rather he spend that time fleshing out the character's background and personality than figuring out whether its best to put one point or two into a particular flavor skill.

 

[Stalker0]

The point-based method gives him lots and lots of opportunity to spend time and energy filling out things that in the end are utterly meaningless to the game and to his character. I'd rather he spend that time fleshing out the character's background and personality than figuring out whether its best to put one point or two into a particular flavor skill.

Keep in mind though, that its not utterly meaningless to him. This game draws all kinds, and some people just love working with details. Others think they are the most boring thing in the world, but perhaps for this guy it may be the most fun part of making his character while coming up with a background isn't that much fun for him. And fun is what the game is about.

I think a simplified system is fine, especially for skills, but there is always a place for some detailed complexity.

 

[NCSUCodeMonkey]

This is interesting. I'm not sure I can really get behind the whole idea of a character getting better at repairing droids over the course of his career even though he never does any mechanical work, and mechanical aptitude isn't part of his concept in any way.

That argument doesn't really hold water for Star Wars. Lots of sci-fi has this concept where everyone knows a little bit about everything. Star Wars has this, where everyone knows how to pilot a spacecraft or hack a computer. To get that feeling in game, everyone needs to have a certain level in all the abilities. To be truly great at something, you have to specialize in it. I guess this goes to the fact that all this advanced, fantastic technology is commonplace to a character in the Star Wars universe. They deal with it every day so they have some base knowledge of it.

Besides, if it's completely against your character concept to know how to work a speeder, don't do it!