D&D 4E Star Wars Saga Edition as preview of 4e?

pawsplay said:
Sometimes it's worth the risk. I don't see how that's mysterious or illogical. If it were always worth the risk, someone would always do it. And a battle full of trips, disarms, grapples, anything but regular strikes defies logic to me... While I don't expect game combat to be completely realistic, I don't want it to devolve into a slapstick routine, either.
As I've asserted so many times now, the absence of AoO's would not remove the sole disincentive to perform special attacks. Regular strikes for damage would still be standard fare, simply because it's more efficient and reliable. A character trying to disarm, trip, or sunder and failing to get anything out of it will find it very discouraging, especially if he winds up disarmed or tripped for his efforts.

Without AoOs, virtually every fight would begin with a bum rush on the low AC, high damage guy on the other team. Trips would virtually fail to exist, since it would be so hard to stop someone from running past you anyway.... unless you had a ready action, trying to trip the guy before he sticks the mage would simply not work. Go ahead and picture large opponents walking right past the front line and grappling the wizard, time and time again.
I really don't have to imagine. Taking out arcanists first at all costs is a time-honored strategem. AoO's don't change that. Instead, there's an emphasis on volleys of arrows, ranged damage spells, tumbling, and just sucking up the AoO. To paraphrase your own words, if it's always worth the risk, players will do it.

AoOs encourage tactics. Tactical choices allows for creativity. Eliminating AoOs would make combat not only static and repetitive, but deadlier and less fun.
I don't know that you can successfully support any of those assertions, but by all means give it a shot.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

pawsplay said:
That's just completely horrible. I'm picturing a line of kobolds stopping a raging ogre barbarian in its tracks. That's not realistic at all. Realistically, you can try and sometimes get away with doing all kinds of things. If someone has a mega touch AC, you need to address the game reality that brought that about if it bothers you. Otherwise, they really do have that AC and really can dodge just about anything. Trying to create absolutes would just be kludging it, in every way a step back from AoOs.
A line of kobolds (and other small-sized creatures) currently do stop raging ogres (and other large-sized creatures), just by standing there. And that raging barbarian probably doesn't give a crap about any attacks of opportunity that prevent him from reaching that poor wizard, does he? That's a dead-end example that doesn't help your case.

There are plenty of alternatives that would better simulate a "zone of control". One would be to have movement through threatened squares cost double. Another would be some kind "interposing" rule where a character can ready an action to defend another character from an attacker.

Frankly, I only see the end-run around armed combatants being a problem if that combatant is just standing there doing nothing waiting to intercept someone. Once he's engaged with another enemy, why the heck shouldn't you be able to rush past him? He's got someone else to pay attention to. Hey, maybe he should suffer an AoO for trying to AoO you while ignoring his own playmate. :cool:

If we're going to start addressing what "game reality" brings about, then that's really where we can boil down where the problem with characters zooming all over the battlefield is.

First thing is that D&D is just not a deadly enough game for a cheap-shot attack to be a strong deterrent to doing something really effective (like alpha-striking a wizard before he can unleash a nasty party-rocking spell). Attacks of opportunity don't discourage tactics with solid payoffs, they discourage questionable tactics that involve a real risk of taking a hit for nothing and looking stupid for doing so (like, say, disarming or tripping). But we all like D&D barbarians to be really tough n' hardy with lots of hit points, so let's have no more talk of making combat deadlier.

The second thing is, D&D characters are afforded too much movement per round. That's what really allows for characters to do end-runs to the wizard during their turn, or other crazy crap like cutting down an opponent with a loaded crossbow who sees you coming from sixty feet away without him getting off a shot. Forget taking a cheap shot attack at somebody running past you. You should just be able to get in his way.

Personally, my dream version of D20 affords you one swift action and one standard action. Now, a character could do a bit more with that swift action that he currently can, like gaining a little movement or make a quick, sloppy attack. So, say, a character can move 10 feet as a swift action and 20 as a standard action. A character's slowed down enough to keep one round's worth of actions from whisking him around a battlefield.
 

I'm amazed no one has yet mentioned the complete removal of the 5-ft.-step or the changes of charge to a standard action and withdraw to a move action. These, especially the 5-ft.step, will impact tactical combat quite a lot. In fact you might be able now to charge your opponent every round now if terrain allows it: withdraw with your move action, then charge with your standarad action.
 

Zaister said:
I'm amazed no one has yet mentioned the complete removal of the 5-ft.-step or the changes of charge to a standard action and withdraw to a move action. These, especially the 5-ft.step, will impact tactical combat quite a lot. In fact you might be able now to charge your opponent every round now if terrain allows it: withdraw with your move action, then charge with your standarad action.

They have also changed the diagonal movement ratio of 1-2-1-2 etc to 2-2-2-2 etc.
 


jasin said:
That seems kind of silly.


Owen K.C. Stephens said:
"In my personal experience, people who have trouble with 1-2-1-2-1-2 are often very, very bothered by how it breaks their train of thought, and slows an encounter. People who aren't bothered by it always seem able to introduce it even if a rulebook doesn't include it.

Also, I have, literally, seen someone get up and walk away from an effort to teach him roleplaying because the 1-2-1-2 rule was the straw that broke the camel's back. Star Wars has a lot of potential as a gateway. I'd like that gateway to be as inviting as possible.

My thoughts only.
__________________
Owen K.C. Stephens
d20 Triggerman"

I've edited this to make it clear that you are actually quoting Owen here
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Sir Brennen said:
Another reason I think the SWSE is a system designed to cater to the needs of it's own genre, not a testbed for 4E.

After seeing so many pages of this thread, this is the one post of all of the ones I skimmed through that makes the most sense.

Star Wars Saga system was made and tailored for a Star Wars game. Not a D&D game. Granted, you can "borrow" material from Star Wars Saga to use in your D&D game, but that was already done thanks to Unearthed Arcana.

Does anyone remember? Unearthed Arcana introduced rules from the previous Star Wars d20 version such as the Vitality system, for example. As variant rules for D&D, not for "revision" rules or "new edition" rules for D&D.

What people are suggesting to use Star Wars rules for 4E D&D is not 4E D&D. It's 3.5 revised all over again. A 3.75E, to be exact.

If you want WotC to acknowledge some different rules for 3.5E D&D, then just hoot and holler towards Scott Rouse and the rest of the staff for an "Unearthed Arcana 2" and you'll see your precious Saga rules for D&D too and we can all live our lives happily in the land of D&D. :p
 

Razz said:
After seeing so many pages of this thread, this is the one post of all of the ones I skimmed through that makes the most sense.
I thought I wrote that in one of my post.

Still, I don't mind entertaining hypothesis.

Many here are not saying ALL of SECR rules should be used for D&D. Some of the mechanics are interesting enough to be used for D&D.
 

Remove ads

Top