D&D 4E Star Wars Saga Edition as preview of 4e?

[Henry]

...the wizard just casts defensively and maxes out Concentration and (if played from 1st-level) probably takes Combat Casting as his first feat.

Skill Focus(Concentration); the 1-point trade-off is well worth it.

Bottom-line: AoO's boil down to another thing for players to optimize...What AoO's do wind up curtailing is improvisation.

On the other hand, it presumes you want people bull-rushing, tripping, overrunning all over the place. Make those tactics TOO attractive without having to spend resources in them, and people will be doing them too often, and you're into wuxia territory again.

And, again, if you optimize your character to be good at something, then AoO's stop being a detterent.

Personally, I'm OK with Op-attacks being something you can optimize past, just like you can concentration checks, weapon and armor proficiencies, precise shot, and grappling maneuvers. I've been more in preference to some "system mastery" without going overboard with it for a while now.

 

[Felon]

This has not been my experience. Unusual attacks come up with some frequency, and I'm glad there is a deterrent to constant trip or disarm attacks.

Your experience defies logic, but maybe the players in yoru group just like to take reckless chances. If the players really want to abuse trip or disarm attacks, the AoO detterrent is easily nullified with a feat. If they dcon't take the feat, then the deterrent is that these are iffy maneuvers with all-or-nothing consequences. It's often overlooked that if the attempt fails then the attacker is in turn subject to being disarmed/tripped in return (so, in summary, you get attacked for trying, and then attacked if you fail).

Skill Focus(Concentration); the 1-point trade-off is well worth it.

I agree, although I rarely take either honestly.

On the other hand, it presumes you want people bull-rushing, tripping, overrunning all over the place. Make those tactics TOO attractive without having to spend resources in them, and people will be doing them too often, and you're into wuxia territory again.

Like I said above, as well as in the previous post, thos special attacks have plenty of built-in deterrents besides AoO's that keep them being abused left and right.

Personally, I'm OK with Op-attacks being something you can optimize past, just like you can concentration checks, weapon and armor proficiencies, precise shot, and grappling maneuvers. I've been more in preference to some "system mastery" without going overboard with it for a while now.

Unlike those other things you mention, AoO's discourage mobility and improvisation. I'm not sure how keeping combat static and repetitive can be a good thing. I don't think a hero should have to optimize past getting whacked because he moves more than one square in a round or declares some other maneuver other than a vanilla-flavored "I roll to hit".

 

[pawsplay]

Your experience defies logic, but maybe the players in yoru group just like to take reckless chances. If the players really want to abuse trip or disarm attacks, the AoO detterrent is easily nullified with a feat. If they dcon't take the feat, then the deterrent is that these are iffy maneuvers with all-or-nothing consequences. It's often overlooked that if the attempt fails then the attacker is in turn subject to being disarmed/tripped in return (so, in summary, you get attacked for trying, and then attacked if you fail).

Sometimes it's worth the risk. I don't see how that's mysterious or illogical. If it were always worth the risk, someone would always do it. And a battle full of trips, disarms, grapples, anything but regular strikes defies logic to me... While I don't expect game combat to be completely realistic, I don't want it to devolve into a slapstick routine, either.

Unlike those other things you mention, AoO's discourage mobility and improvisation. I'm not sure how keeping combat static and repetitive can be a good thing. I don't think a hero should have to optimize past getting whacked because he moves more than one square in a round or declares some other maneuver other than a vanilla-flavored "I roll to hit".

Without AoOs, virtually every fight would begin with a bum rush on the low AC, high damage guy on the other team. Trips would virtually fail to exist, since it would be so hard to stop someone from running past you anyway.... unless you had a ready action, trying to trip the guy before he sticks the mage would simply not work. Go ahead and picture large opponents walking right past the front line and grappling the wizard, time and time again.

AoOs encourage tactics. Tactical choices allows for creativity. Eliminating AoOs would make combat not only static and repetitive, but deadlier and less fun.

 

[Gentlegamer]

AoOs encourage tactics. Tactical choices allows for creativity. Eliminating AoOs would make combat not only static and repetitive, but deadlier and less fun.

That's just it . . . not everyone wants tactical combat (or miniatures).

 

[Warbringer]

If you're referring to the bonus feat at each alternating level and the few "building block" classes, that appeared in d20 Modern.

Fair comment.

But also, damage track (effectively a toughness saves with wounds reducung combat effectiveness), single attack mechanic, consolidation of skills, constraining saves escalation

But d20 Modern certainly pointed True20 in the right direction

 

[Plane Sailing]

Without AoOs, virtually every fight would begin with a bum rush on the low AC, high damage guy on the other team. Trips would virtually fail to exist, since it would be so hard to stop someone from running past you anyway.... unless you had a ready action, trying to trip the guy before he sticks the mage would simply not work. Go ahead and picture large opponents walking right past the front line and grappling the wizard, time and time again.

AoOs encourage tactics. Tactical choices allows for creativity. Eliminating AoOs would make combat not only static and repetitive, but deadlier and less fun.

Well, that is only if AoO were just yoinked out and everything else was left unchanged. I've never seen that seriously proposed. Instead you see systems which simply restrict what you can do.

Such systems actually encourage more tactics and more realism (since with an AoO system someone can just choose to run past the front line and suck up the attacks, or be confident that nobody can touch their mega-touch-AC; a system which, say, doesn't allow movements that would cause AoO means that you either have to sidle past the frontline using 5ft steps or defeat that frontline the old fashioned way.

Basically, AoO systems encourage certain types of tactics. Non AoO systems encourage different types of tactics (after all, dozens of RPGs prior to 3e worked just fine without AoO, didn't they?)

Cheers

 

[robberbaron]

So, take out AoOs and add a Zone of Control around characters & monsters.
Small & Medium get a 5' ZoC, Large 10' and so on.
Any critter entering a ZoC must stop.


Doesn't address trips, etc., but does eliminate critters running past with impunity.

 

[pawsplay]

Such systems actually encourage more tactics and more realism (since with an AoO system someone can just choose to run past the front line and suck up the attacks, or be confident that nobody can touch their mega-touch-AC; a system which, say, doesn't allow movements that would cause AoO means that you either have to sidle past the frontline using 5ft steps or defeat that frontline the old fashioned way.

That's just completely horrible. I'm picturing a line of kobolds stopping a raging ogre barbarian in its tracks. That's not realistic at all. Realistically, you can try and sometimes get away with doing all kinds of things. If someone has a mega touch AC, you need to address the game reality that brought that about if it bothers you. Otherwise, they really do have that AC and really can dodge just about anything. Trying to create absolutes would just be kludging it, in every way a step back from AoOs.

 

[pawsplay]

So, take out AoOs and add a Zone of Control around characters & monsters.
Small & Medium get a 5' ZoC, Large 10' and so on.
Any critter entering a ZoC must stop.


Doesn't address trips, etc., but does eliminate critters running past with impunity.

And creates Super Magnetic Kobolds.

 

[Plane Sailing]

That's just completely horrible. I'm picturing a line of kobolds stopping a raging ogre barbarian in its tracks. That's not realistic at all.

Overrun? Bull rush?

Are you suggesting that every other RPG in the world of time and space that doesn't have AoO are somehow horrible and 'less realistic' than D&D?

My mind boggles at the concept!