[Star Wars] Saga Edition's New Damage System

[Ranger REG]

You should have called.

You should have looked.

MERGER TIME!

 

[evildmguy]

Ugh.

UGH.

UGH!

I have said it before, and I will say it again. Hit points are a lousy thing. They were conceived from war gaming, which used them as an abstraction for a unit but are now applied to an individual. And, don't get me wrong, for most d20 players, they work. That's great! I hope all of you who like them continue to enjoy them.

I just wish that the designers would stop trying to define them to "make sense" when applied to an individual. It just sounds silly to me and it makes them seem to be defending a system when they should just be saying "this is how it works."

What I mean is this:

Hit points (sometimes abbreviated "hp") represent two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a graze or near miss.

(And, as I have posted in the past, this is almost verbatim from the SRD.)

So, this means that Hit points represent "the ability to [be hit] and the ability to [avoid being hit]." So, hit points mean the exact opposite things at the same time! Terrible definition! If you are going to use them, just use them. Stop trying to explain them, as you can't! They are from a completely different type of game!

As to the Saga game, I think d6 had the best version of it. I won't know until this comes out, and someone else talks about it or I read it at a book store, but I would think it would be fine as long as it adds more than just paper work. If all it does is add more work with little or no gain, then it will be worse.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Have a good one. Take care.

edg

 

[Ranger REG]

I have said it before, and I will say it again. Hit points are a lousy thing. They were conceived from war gaming, which used them as an abstraction for a unit but are now applied to an individual. And, don't get me wrong, for most d20 players, they work. That's great! I hope all of you who like them continue to enjoy them.

I just wish that the designers would stop trying to define them to "make sense" when applied to an individual. It just sounds silly to me and it makes them seem to be defending a system when they should just be saying "this is how it works."

They could say that as much as we rules lawyers would affirm, "Because the rules said so."

But the question still linger. "Why? Why does this mechanics work better than the existing one?"

P.S. Best to save bandwidth and merge the two threads, mod.

 

[Klaus]

Ugh.

UGH.

UGH!

I have said it before, and I will say it again. Hit points are a lousy thing. They were conceived from war gaming, which used them as an abstraction for a unit but are now applied to an individual. And, don't get me wrong, for most d20 players, they work. That's great! I hope all of you who like them continue to enjoy them.

I just wish that the designers would stop trying to define them to "make sense" when applied to an individual. It just sounds silly to me and it makes them seem to be defending a system when they should just be saying "this is how it works."

What I mean is this:



(And, as I have posted in the past, this is almost verbatim from the SRD.)

So, this means that Hit points represent "the ability to [be hit] and the ability to [avoid being hit]." So, hit points mean the exact opposite things at the same time! Terrible definition! If you are going to use them, just use them. Stop trying to explain them, as you can't! They are from a completely different type of game!

As to the Saga game, I think d6 had the best version of it. I won't know until this comes out, and someone else talks about it or I read it at a book store, but I would think it would be fine as long as it adds more than just paper work. If all it does is add more work with little or no gain, then it will be worse.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Have a good one. Take care.

edg

Hit Points from *racial* HD represent the overall thoughness of a creature.

Hit Points from *class* HD represent the training, luck or agility that turns an otherwise solid hit into a glancing blow.

Personally, I loved how the Star Wars article explained hit points, and would like to see that spelled out in D&D (the stormtrooper example is great).

 

[FireLance]

So, this means that Hit points represent "the ability to [be hit] and the ability to [avoid being hit]." So, hit points mean the exact opposite things at the same time! Terrible definition! If you are going to use them, just use them. Stop trying to explain them, as you can't! They are from a completely different type of game!

Actually, they look to me like complementary things, just like the ability to avoid being hit in the first place (Dexterity, Dodge, deflection), and the ability to prevent an attack that hits from damaging you (armor, shield, natural armor) both add to Armor Class.

I suppose that conceptually, you could break hit points down into "the ability to turn a damaging blow into a glancing blow" and "the ability to keep going after taking a damaging blow" (I guess the VP/WP system effectively did that), but if the system doesn't differentiate between "not yet hit by a damaging blow" and "hit by a damaging blow" (as the VP/WP system does), it's probably simpler to just keep track of current hp.

 

[kibbitz]

Well, AC is another can of worms entirely, but if you want to take that with HP, it leads to the bit where the wound that would have killed you four adventures ago (8 dmg) is now a graze to you, but it still takes the same amount of time/resources to heal (1 full CLW). Arguments can always be made in favour of, or against this. At the end of the day, these are really be left as abstractions... there's more fun to be had in the playing than in the debating.

 

[Mouseferatu]

there's more fun to be had in the playing than in the debating.

Not judging by the Rules forum, there's not.

 

[Shalimar]

DnD in space Wohoo! not.

I know what my first house rule is going to be. Hit Points are one of my major problems with DnD, exporting them into other things that I like makes me like those other things less. People just don't get tough enough to take a hail of arrows when a single arrow was enough to kill them, it just doesn't work for me.

 

[evildmguy]

First off, I am not bashing people who like DND/d20/SWd20 or any role playing game. I like role playing games a lot and am glad to share things with others who enjoy it as well.

Obviously, I have a problem with hit points. And AC and other aspects of d20. Some people don't, in fact most people probably don't, and that's great. Overall, it doesn't work for me. Yes, it is just an abstraction. This is why I don't think DND/d20 is for all games because different games have different abstractions. IMO, that's why we need more than one set of rules for RPGs, so that there are choices of things are abstracted. No system is perfect but as long as people find one they like, that's the point.

So, with that disclaimer/PC statements out of the way.

Ranger REG: I am sorry if my rant lost my point to the OP. The new system will be bad if all it does is add more "paperwork" without giving any real benefit. For that to happen, BOTH players AND the GM will have to like the new system. If one side doesn't, there will be problems. Yes, we won't know until it is out. I was more saying that the explanation I read on the linked page didn't make it sound like anything more than extra paperwork to me. I won't know until it's released.

Klaus: And again, if they work for you, that's great! I hope you are having fun with your game. Hit points, in general, don't work for me. I still think the explanation given is contradictory and has been forced to explain the difference between high and low level characters.

After playing in Dark Sun, where characters of different levels had almost the same AC (another issue I have ), the opponents needed the exact same thing to hit the character, yet somehow one blow would be fatal and the other is a scratch. That's how DND works and it just isn't for me. That's all I am saying.

FireLance: Great! I am glad they work for you. They don't for me.

Overall, as I said in my post, DND came from wargaming and it is things like AC, hit points, and level (and probably other things) that don't work for me. However, I am a minority of one and so my opinion doesn't matter all that much.

I do appreciate that the designers are trying to find explanations for how they work. These explanations seem to work for some people and again I think that's great! It just doesn't work for me.

Have a good one. Take care.

edg

 

[evildmguy]

there's more fun to be had in the playing than in the debating.

I have time for both!

And after having used the DND system for over 20 years, I know it well enough to know where it shines and where it doesn't work for me.



Have a good one. Take care.

edg