Starting HD or HP for +ECL humanoid

[lifebane]

I am unsure how this is handled. Tee rule I ran across was a bit ambiguous so I am appealing to the knowledgable masses here for their views / interpetatiosn of how this is handled.

If a party is starting off at lvl 4:

1. There are two standard humanoids (elves) that are lvl 4 and have equivelant HP's for someone of lvl 4.
2. There is a Deep Gnome (ECL 3) being played and is starting as a lvl 1 Wizard (combined ecl of 4th). This one has only the lvl 1 D4 Hit points for 1st level. This has created an equivelant 4th level character with 4 hit points. Ouch.
3. There is a Deep Orc (ECL 2) being played and is staring as a lvl 2 Fighter (Combined ecl of 4th). This one has only the 2 levels of d10 hit points for being a fighter. This scenario creates a 4th level equivelant Tank with 20 hit points.

The way the rule sread this woudl be the right way to play these races as player characters. Yet it makes no sense when you look at the results. In essence you have a deep gnome that did not exist before attaining lvl 1 wizard, yet there are deep gnomes that have no lvl in any class that have d8 hitpoints just for being born basically as Deep Gnomes. Same scenario with the Deep Orc.

Am I missing something here? misinterpreting the rules perhaps?

Thanks in advance for any of your wisdom on this one.

 

[Rhun]

You did it right, which is one of the reasons LA can be a pain in the butt. Basically a PC can only play a deep gnome in a game starting at level 4. I believe the book Savage Species may have racial classes for the deep gnome, but I don't have the book to confirm (meaning your PC would play a level 3 deep gnome/leve 1 wizard).

 

[irdeggman]

The Savage Progressions articles at WotC gave a treatment for things like this.


http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp

There was a deep gnome there, no deep orc though.

Basically Savage Species didn't work well (or at all) for races with only LA (i.e., no racial hit dice) and this set of article attempted to address that issue. Pretty much there is a "base" race and "class levels" for the LA. But the class levels have no hit points nor skill points and thus you do not need to take them in any order - you just won't get a all of the race abilities until you do.

But yes, you technically can't advance a LA race from 1st level without a variant like this.

 

[lifebane]

ewww.. so a 4th lvl character equivelant has Max of 4 standard hp (1st lvl Snirv). Hate to say that it soudns broken but no way can that character succesfully adventure with a group of standard lvl 4's based on hp's alone. Woudl iek to have seen a Deep Orc somewhere other than races of faerun, with the numnber of bonuses they get I have my doubts that they woudl have been 1hd creatures.

 

[Darklone]

Hehehe. This problems to survive the lower levels are the only reason why most LA races didn't kill all other races

 

[Krafen]

The XPH has a "racial class" approach to address this sort of issue. Basically, it spreads out the racial abilities across several levels so you get more hit dice sooner. It doesn't have classes for the two races you are using, but adaption should be fairly easy.

 

[lifebane]

XPH = ?? Can you be more specific which book tahta is and if you happen to know what section to reference it in all the better

Thanks!

 

[javcs]

XPH is Expanded Psionics Handbook.
Where it is I don't know.

 

[irdeggman]

The XPH has a "racial class" approach to address this sort of issue. Basically, it spreads out the racial abilities across several levels so you get more hit dice sooner. It doesn't have classes for the two races you are using, but adaption should be fairly easy.

Hmm maybe I'm not seeing it.

Looking in the Monster section under Thri-Kreen +2 LA +2 HD = ECL +4.

The section for Thri-Kreen as characters doesn't break down any way of handling the LA. It lists what the HD gives the PC, but there is nothing like the racial levels that were in Savage Species or the Savage Progressions articles at WotC.

 

[lifebane]

I have been browsing the books myself and cant find a direct rule for that kind of build for +ecl. maybe I missed something?!?