Altamont Ravenard
Explorer
You know, that's a great idea!Hjorimir said:
Yoinkage
AR
Stat and skill increasing items
- Thread starter Ricochet
- Start date
Yoinkage
AR
Well, I don't ban any of the itmes in the DMG, but I don't allow players to BUY any magical items either. So for me, it's not a matter of a +2 bonus being only 4000 gp, since they can have all the gold they want and it wont get them squat. I just tend to scale items as I judge their power, and items that give straight stat increases tend to be scaled up a little in my games, thus it is unlikely that low level PCs will EVER see anything like them. To my mind, giving a mid level fighter a +2 to strength is not a huge advantage. Yeah, he will see a lot of things go up (attack, dmg, skills), but the +1 to his attack when he's sitting at something like +10 already makes it a relatively small advantage (as opposed to say a first level fighter, in which case the bonuses are going to be noticable). Same thing goes for skills, and often dmg as well.
Plus, I've found that by holding stuff like this back from my players, it makes them that much more thrilled when they find an item
Plus, I've found that by holding stuff like this back from my players, it makes them that much more thrilled when they find an item
Flyspeck23
First Post
ParagonofVirtue said:
IMHO not quite true. The increases you gain for character levels are true increases stacking with anything (as it modifies the basic ability and doesn't enhance it). The increase granted by the item on the other hand doesn't stack with virtually nothing else (the ability buff spells for example, or the various stat-increasing manuals (if you allow those, which I doubt)).
And you gain a lot of other benefits from gaining levels, not just stat increases
Tessarael
Adventurer
D&D traditionally has been a very magic item (equipment) and spell oriented game. Characters are severely weakened without their equipment. Spells can simulate or do better than proficiencies or skills.
If you don't want equipment to define characters, can I recommend giving the players faster progression of ability points and skill bonus feats to cover this gap. e.g. You could give +1 to an ability every 2 levels, or even every 1 level. To limit power creep, you can limit how much of a bonus can be added to a single ability (e.g. +6). Similarly for skills, except the mechanic I would use would be to give out skill focus feats periodically - say 1/3 levels at 2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th, etc. This places the maximum skill bonus to an ability (+3), but does help mitigate the lack of skill items.
For my high level Rogue-type character, skill items are essential. He doesn't have enough skill points to go round - the skill items help fill the gaps. It would be less of an issue if he only specialized in say Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Listen and Spot. However, he also makes a fair bit of use of Disguise, Bluff, Diplomacy and Gather Information ... so too many skills to be excellent in any one skill without help.
With respect to my second point on spells ... keep in mind that skills like Balance and Jump are completely meaningless as soon as the spellcaster can fly. Alter Self, a 2nd level spell, enables flying. Most skills are really very weak abilities compared to combat abilities. It doesn't matter if someone gets +10 to these sorts of skills (e.g. the Jump spell). There are a few skills that are very useful in combat: Concentration, Tumble and Use Magic Device spring to mind. I would be much more cautious about allowing items that give a significant bonus to any of these skills.
Compare the current magic items to AD&D. In AD&D, a Cloak of Elvenkind gave 99% Hide chance. Compare to spells: cast Invisibility - who cares about Hide now ... well, okay we do, because of the 3E rules, that the spot check is only DC 20 ... but you get the idea ... the 3E rules are better, but spells still completely outdo most skill powergaming options.
If you don't want equipment to define characters, can I recommend giving the players faster progression of ability points and skill bonus feats to cover this gap. e.g. You could give +1 to an ability every 2 levels, or even every 1 level. To limit power creep, you can limit how much of a bonus can be added to a single ability (e.g. +6). Similarly for skills, except the mechanic I would use would be to give out skill focus feats periodically - say 1/3 levels at 2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th, etc. This places the maximum skill bonus to an ability (+3), but does help mitigate the lack of skill items.
For my high level Rogue-type character, skill items are essential. He doesn't have enough skill points to go round - the skill items help fill the gaps. It would be less of an issue if he only specialized in say Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Listen and Spot. However, he also makes a fair bit of use of Disguise, Bluff, Diplomacy and Gather Information ... so too many skills to be excellent in any one skill without help.
With respect to my second point on spells ... keep in mind that skills like Balance and Jump are completely meaningless as soon as the spellcaster can fly. Alter Self, a 2nd level spell, enables flying. Most skills are really very weak abilities compared to combat abilities. It doesn't matter if someone gets +10 to these sorts of skills (e.g. the Jump spell). There are a few skills that are very useful in combat: Concentration, Tumble and Use Magic Device spring to mind. I would be much more cautious about allowing items that give a significant bonus to any of these skills.
Compare the current magic items to AD&D. In AD&D, a Cloak of Elvenkind gave 99% Hide chance. Compare to spells: cast Invisibility - who cares about Hide now ... well, okay we do, because of the 3E rules, that the spot check is only DC 20 ... but you get the idea ... the 3E rules are better, but spells still completely outdo most skill powergaming options.
Deadguy
First Post
Oddly enough, I don't really have a problem with attribute-boosting items, though I am pretty tough on them being in appropriate forms (so no vests of giant strength or boots of charisma).
I am bothered about skill-boosting items, since skills, and skill availability, is an important distinction between classes. When I started 3.0 I boosted the costs to the same as 3.5 eventually used, and even included the idea of appropriate forms for the items. I still reckon they are too cheap. Adding +5 to a skill check is a really valuable thing when you consider that for many classes that might be two levels of skill points. I am almost tempted to use a cubic scale instead.
I don't want to eliminate them entirely - they are an interesting reward for use of magic - but I am thinking that they should be a chore to commission.
I am bothered about skill-boosting items, since skills, and skill availability, is an important distinction between classes. When I started 3.0 I boosted the costs to the same as 3.5 eventually used, and even included the idea of appropriate forms for the items. I still reckon they are too cheap. Adding +5 to a skill check is a really valuable thing when you consider that for many classes that might be two levels of skill points. I am almost tempted to use a cubic scale instead.
I don't want to eliminate them entirely - they are an interesting reward for use of magic - but I am thinking that they should be a chore to commission.
If you're having problem with these things, consider enforcing the appropriate slot issue Deadguy mentioned. Also, you may want to disallow custom items that stack multiple different abilities on one item, rather than disallowing the abilities completely. This will make players seriously consider what they put on each slot.
Tessarael
Adventurer
You should also be aware that epic play assumes skill bonus items and attribute bonus items. The skill DCs are generally hellishly high, which is only really achievable with at least a +10 if not more from a skill bonus item. The epic feat prerequisites often have ability requirements on the order of 25, which may well require an attribute bonus item to achieve in a lower point buy campaign.
