Stat Block Problems w/ Hordes of the Abyss

[satori01]

Hordes of the Abyss uses the new WOTC stat block, and I have to say I find the implementation of the new stat block to be a bit bush league.
Dungeon has used the stat block for a long time now, and while I think it is fine as a combat ready stat sheet, I do not like the implementation we have seen in WOTC books like Complete Psionic. Hordes of the Abyss is better than Complete Psionic, but imho crucial information is left out for a general monster entry.

My First quibble:

Hit points and total number of Hit Dice are listed, but not the HD die type and not the CON bonus to Hit Points. Thus an entry might read:
110 (10Hit Dice).
Frankly I do not use average Hit Points for my monsters, and having how many Hit Points are added from CON, from class levels, from the Construct Bonus etc are useful to me in being able to adjust Hit Points from the average roll. I also find it easier to apply CON Adjusting effects (like Infestation of Maggots), when you have the baseline of CON based bonus Hit Points in front of you.
Moreover, I think not showing the HD Die type is a barrier to entry for new DMs. I might know that all Outsiders have d8 Hit Dice, but what about a new DM? Spell it out for us WOTC, the ink savings can not be that much, and frankly, you need to show your work, I dont mind a stat block being off here of there, but no Q.E.D. for you!

Next:
The amount of Power Attack auto calculated into a creatures attack routine is not listed. Thus while normally we would have an entry like this :
* Power Attack for 5 points is already included in Stat Block

We Instead get this:
* Power Attack is already included in Stat Block

That is abysmal in my opinion,(yuck, yuck, yuck)! The whole point of Power Attack is the number you apply is variable. Yes, I'm sure many DMs never adjust the Power Attack modifier of a creature when Power Attack is prefigured into the Stat Block, but I am just as sure that many DMs do! Again how much ink savings does WOTC garner, compared to the frustration of having to reverse engineer how much Power Attack the creature is taking? Poor Customer Service, One would think switching to a new Stat Block format would entail less math for the DM, not more.

Here is the worse part. By forcing me to do the math on my own it only made it abundantly clear how inaccurate the Stat Blocks are. Now let me make this clear, I am not a Stat Block Nazi, with a game as complex as 3.5 D&D, errors are bound to creep in. The 3.5 Monster Manual, has the math work shown for Hit Points and Power Attack. I know I can grab the book on the fly, mid game, and use a monster from it (say like a Summoned Demon), and the creature will be effective, and from a casual inspection 100 % correct. The ease of use of the 3.5 Monster Manual, means I do not have to dig too deeply under the hood.

Not so with Hordes of the Abyss. First off, by not having the Power Attack amount listed, using these Demons on the fly is a bit harder, and lets face it, one of the salient aspects of Tanari is being able to summon other Demons, on the fly use is pretty important.
While reading, I found myself considering, in the case of reprint Demons, of just using the original stats presented from the original books. In most cases, the issue is converting 3.0 Damage Reduction to 3.5 Damage reduction, which is real simple to do.

Secondly the errors are bad, real bad in some cases. I stopped reading at Baphomet. I had a Louis Black meltdown moment when I realized that despite the Stat Block listing Baphomet as using Power Attack; Power Attack was not added into his damage, as well as the +2 from his magic weapon. I also noticed a problem with the Goristo as well.

Again this is from a cursory, and incomplete glance, I expect to find more errors as I get further into the more complex Stat Blocks of the Demon Lords.

Perhaps I am overreacting, but I just find it a slap in the face to not have a crucial, and easily provided piece of information neglected, for what I can assume be fractions of a cent worth of ink per book.
The D&D community has grown to expect a listed Grapple Bonus, I think the amount of Pre Factored Power Attack and Hit Dice type is on par in importance.

I also find the Stat Block Errors and new Stat Block ommisions particuliarly galling in light that Hordes of the Abyss largely seems to be mainly Repackage, Revise, Reprint. Hell, the introduction cops to that right off the bat. I own Book of Vile Darkness, I have a subscription to Dragon Magazine, I have stats for a lot of these monsters right now, before Hordes of the Abyss.
If I am paying twice for the same monster, the same feat, and the same general descriptions I had before, I damn well expect accuracy and progress in terms of ease of use!

Methinks preordering WOTC books Amazon sight unseen, is over for me, certainly this will be true for Monster Manual 4!

 

[JoeGKushner]

Stats have been pretty bad in all WoTC products lately. Not making the game information unusable and for those who aren't too worried about such things not an issue, but I do look forward to John Cooper's 'unofficial' errata and get tired of hearing about how it's being worked on.

Especially interesting as we often have several writers for WoTC here but either they're not the ones doing the monster stat blocks or the editors mangle the stat blocks or the new format is causing trouble or it's not worth their time to double check it.

 

[Imruphel]

I have to agree with the points raised. There has to be a greater emphasis on getting the stat blocks right. After all, if John Cooper can pick then up on a read-through where he isn't getting paid, surely an --employee-- whose job it is to ensure that they are correct will pick the errors.

Anyway, I'm wasting e-ink because WotC doesn't care about this. I generate all my own stat blocks... which kind of defeats the purpose of buying them, doesn't it?

I also agree that factoring in Power Attack is annoying. It's easy enough to work out after all. I would rather that the person responsible spent the extra 30 seconds required to work out the Power Attack modifiers on correcting the erroneous stat block instead.

 

[satori01]

I think it really does come down to respect for ones customers, as silly as that probably sounds to some people.

Ommiting the amount of Power Attack taken can not translate to that much savings on print and ink. I'm fine with WOTC making money, but when what I think is a planned cut comes at the expense of my time, I have a problem. I would be loath to buy a monster book today that did not have the Grapple score calculated, likewise I feel about Power Attack modifiers.

I really hope WOTC does not treat this in a "Bugs are a Feature" sort of way. What really burns me about this, is, in this day and age, with the huge internet community out there, the distance between Designer/Game Company and the consumer is smaller than ever.

I think it is Asinine buisness sense to NOT take advantage to what amounts to free polling and testing of a future product change.
A simple thread on Enworld and Wizard's own board can yield a huge amount of feedback. Afterall where does WOTC think they are acquiring their freelance authors from?

 

[Sammael]

When I write stat-blocks (for my own purpose), I generally add an extra Melee attack line with Power Attack factored in. For instance:

Melee Greatsword +11/+6 (2d6+6, 19-20) or
Melee Greatsword (PA2) +9/+4 (2d6+10, 19-20)

I suppose an alternative would be to list the typical number used for Power Attack in parentheses after listing Power Attack under the Attack Options section:

Attack Options Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack (usually for 2)

 

[Garnfellow]

In one of the many other threads on this book, John Cooper mentioned that he was starting to read through it and was already describing the stat blocks as "abysmal."

I wonder if Jacobs originally submitted more powerful versions of the demons, and the errors crept in when WotC designers regressed them to fit the CR 19-23 range?

In any case, I am shocked that WotC has still not gotten this stat block problem under control. Was it Jesse Decker who last summer said that Wizards had recently added new staff, and that the extra help should cut down on future problems?

 

[Delta]

The game is too complicated. No one can get stat blocks right anymore.

 

[Aesthetic Monk]

The game is too complicated. No one can get stat blocks right anymore.

I think I can partially agree with the first half, but the latter is demonstrably false, I think. (EDIT: At least as an absolute, which you may well not have meant.)

Aside: I've done a little stat-block editing for publication. It is pretty excrutiating, and you really hope that you get it right but you fear, deep down, that you didn't. Then there's always the possibility that the writer/publisher will reedit the creature anyway (which is his/her right, of course), making your checking for naught. My problem has been that the writer(s) haven't been asked to "show their work," so I have to guess on things like ability score increases and the like, which I'm hoping to change if I do another project in the future.

Back to the main point: The system is complex but rule goverened; therefore, stat blocks may be difficult but not impossible to get right.

 

[Garnfellow]

The game is too complicated. No one can get stat blocks right anymore.

I hope you weren't being sarcastic, but a lot of people believe this, and it’s just flat-out untrue.

Is the game complex? No doubt. Does this mean making stat blocks requires a lot of work and attention to detail? Sure thing. Should we expect every stat block ever published to be perfect? No, because mistakes happen.

But based on all this, is it possible to do a better job than what WotC has done over the last few years? Absolutely and without question! Once upon a time, WotC itself was able to do a significantly better job at producing clean stat blocks. Or take a look at Denizens of Avadnu for an example of a small, third-party company doing a large, complex monster book with significantly better accuracy than what WotC has been doing for the last 2 years.

Back in the heyday of d20 many, many third party publishers were raked over the coals for not correctly following the rules for constructing monsters – and rightfully so. I don’t understand why people are so quick to give WotC a free pass on this since it seems crystal clear that this is (1) an ongoing, persistent problem, and (2) it’s certainly possible to do a much better job than is currently being done.

 

[James Jacobs]

In one of the many other threads on this book, John Cooper mentioned that he was starting to read through it and was already describing the stat blocks as "abysmal."

I wonder if Jacobs originally submitted more powerful versions of the demons, and the errors crept in when WotC designers regressed them to fit the CR 19-23 range?

In any case, I am shocked that WotC has still not gotten this stat block problem under control. Was it Jesse Decker who last summer said that Wizards had recently added new staff, and that the extra help should cut down on future problems?

The demon lords in my turnover were not designed as more poweful versions; what I turned over is what you see in the book.

Sort of.

Curious about this, I compared my text turnover to the final book, and lo and behold the statblocks don't quite match up. Most notable is the fact that I did indicate how many points the demons were putting in to Power Attack in my turnover (which is, incidentally, the way we present this information in Dungeon). So it seems obvious to me that there was some tinkering going on between my turnover and the final printing of the book. So in a nutshell... I'm not sure when the errors to the statblock were introduced.

That said, I think the game is probably too complex. I do statblocks more or less every day at work, and have been building them for the past three years. They're easilly the hardest part of the job, and certainly take up the most time in developing an adventure. I like to think that I've gotten pretty good at building them, so it's incredibly frustrating to see a product I worked on end up riddled with errors. Errors in stat blocks indicate two things to me: 1) The game is probably too complicated and 2) products with stat blocks need to spend more time in editing than they do.

Anyway, I apologize for the errors in the book (although I'm fairly certain the majority of them didn't originate on my keyboard), and for the omission of things like the amount of Power Attack bonuses (which I had no control over). Hopefully an eratta (either John's or WotC's) will be available soon.