Stat Block Problems w/ Hordes of the Abyss

[DaveMage]

If the stat blocks are getting *worse* through editing...um...wow.

 

[Tharian]

Speaking of statblocks, is there a statblock template out somewhere that can be used to just fill in data? I'd like to find something I can use when whipping up encounters before taking them into the game.

 

[JoeGKushner]

If the stat blocks are getting *worse* through editing...um...wow.

But yet that's what we're seeing.

To have James come in and say he turned in X and they produced Y with even more stat errors is astonishing. I'd fire that editor. "Gee, thanks for taking okay product and ruining it. Don't let the door hit you on the way out."

 

[Arnwyn]

Hordes of the Abyss uses the new WOTC stat block, and I have to say I find the implementation of the new stat block to be a bit bush league.
Dungeon has used the stat block for a long time now, and while I think it is fine as a combat ready stat sheet, I do not like the implementation we have seen in WOTC books like Complete Psionic. Hordes of the Abyss is better than Complete Psionic, but imho crucial information is left out for a general monster entry.

I absolutely, whole-heartedly agree with this.

While I dislike the new stat block in general (after I've used it fairly regularly thanks to Dungeon mag), I find the use of it for a general monster entry to be entirely unacceptable.

Is this supposed to be a toolbox or not? It makes altering and advancing monsters far too time-consuming to be remotely reasonable.

I'm curious to see MM4 and have a look at what they've done.

 

[Garnfellow]

Speaking of statblocks, is there a statblock template out somewhere that can be used to just fill in data? I'd like to find something I can use when whipping up encounters before taking them into the game.

I built this for new format stat blocks: http://home.gwi.net/~rdorman/frilond/rul/dm/newstatblock.htm

Hope this helps!

 

[buzz]

That said, I think the game is probably too complex.

I don't spend as much time with stat blocks as you do, James, so maybe it's not worth as much when I say I don't think the game is too complex (though converting CotSQ to 3.5 was quite an effort, I'll admit). But that aside...

The bigger issue to me is the lack of useful tools for dealing with the complexity. There are some great third-party tools out there (e.g., PCGen), but they are either limited to OGC or else require additional investment, either in time (learning how to modify the tool [life is too short!]) or money (buying data packs [paying "again" for info I already bought]).

I know WotC has some proprietary tools they use in-house for design, but it seem obvious that they're not perfect. I would think it would be in WotC's interest to develop an easy-to-use, scalable tool for managing PCs and NPCs/monsters; both for themselves AND their customers.

Seriously, make it easier for me to use D&D (without sacrificing detail) and I will use D&D more often and more effectively. As a WotC staffer or d20 publisher, I will produce better content at lower cost. Better games, better products. All of this is good for the D&D brand.

Hero Games has a software product for HERO called Hero Designer. It's not free, but it is hands-down the most useful and useable RPG software tool I've ever seen. It outputs perfect math, makes HERO chargen a breeze, and is easily user-modifiable. They sell data packs, but for the most part, adding in that data myself is very easy.

This tool, coupled with volunteer "calculator commandos", keeps Hero Games' errata well under control.

If a little company like Hero Games can do this, why not WotC?

 

[Cam Banks]

Curious about this, I compared my text turnover to the final book, and lo and behold the statblocks don't quite match up. Most notable is the fact that I did indicate how many points the demons were putting in to Power Attack in my turnover (which is, incidentally, the way we present this information in Dungeon). So it seems obvious to me that there was some tinkering going on between my turnover and the final printing of the book. So in a nutshell... I'm not sure when the errors to the statblock were introduced.

Unbelievable.

It's hard enough to get them right when you're the one doing them, I totally agree. I've done hundreds of them in the new format and I'm still unsure about the specifics of where some things go - this changes all the time. Moving away from the actual number of points of PA used is bizarre.

I just want stat block writer guidelines. Good ones! Wouldn't that make sense?

Cheers,
Cam

 

[buzz]

Or take a look at Denizens of Avadnu for an example of a small, third-party company doing a large, complex monster book with significantly better accuracy than what WotC has been doing for the last 2 years.

The quesiton is, did they do it profitably? They're still around, so maybe. But if they're not a full-time employer (common for small RPG publishers), is thier metric of success even comparable?

(I suppose this applies to Hero games as well.)

Food for thought: Chris Chinn talks about Mearls talking on ENworld about the RPG biz.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

That said, I think the game is probably too complex. I do statblocks more or less every day at work, and have been building them for the past three years. They're easilly the hardest part of the job, and certainly take up the most time in developing an adventure. I like to think that I've gotten pretty good at building them, so it's incredibly frustrating to see a product I worked on end up riddled with errors. Errors in stat blocks indicate two things to me: 1) The game is probably too complicated and 2) products with stat blocks need to spend more time in editing than they do.

As a bit of an aside, would it be possible for the statblocks from the adventures to be included in the web supplements for each issue?

 

[Abe.ebA]

I kind of wonder how editing is done in general. For most companies publishing a printed product you only need one or two sorts of editor. Someone to check the actual writing (the prose, grammar, and spelling, that is) and someone to check for legal problems or to massage bits of the text to fit into their format.

RPGs seem like a whole different beast, at least to me. The grammar, spelling, and writing guy doesn't necessarily need to know anything about d&d. The legal guy is more likely to pop up in a 3rd party company to parse for OGL problems. But then you need, I'd say, at least two more editors. Someone whose job it is to look for rules that duplicate (in whole or in part) existing rules and look for obvious contradictions right in the rules statements and another guy to read and edit stat blocks.

I say all this because I'm wondering if perhaps WotC is trying to multi-task their editors. Do they actually have people whose job it is just to comb through stat blocks for errors? Or is the same guy looking for a comma splice and an extra 5hp? If it's the latter then I'm not surprised there are so many errors. I see people here on ENWorld posting stat block errors the day that a book hits shelves. If WotC really has people who just edit stat blocks (or even stat blocks and rules both) then the problems are just inexcusable and whoever edited this book should get the boot. If it's just a couple of guys (or one guy) who gets the whole manuscript and is told "Find all the errors." then I don't blame him (or them) for making mistakes. Well, I do, since they're getting paid not to... but it's a lot more understandable