Static Spot Check to Notice Invisible?

[Vegepygmy]

Where does it talk about hiding as part of an attack aside from sniping?

PHB, page 76: "It's practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging."

 

[moritheil]

PHB, page 76: "It's practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging."

I understand that that section raises the possibility of attacking and then hiding. But that statement is clarified in the Hide skill, where it talks specifically about sniping.

Are there rules provided that explicitly allow for melee attacks followed by hiding?

 

[jaelis]

I'm not sure how I could understand running or charging as referring to the sniping rules... what makes you think the attacking option does?

Are there rules provided that explicitly allow for melee attacks followed by hiding?

Normally you can't hide following a melee attack because you're being observed. The sniping rule is a special exception to that for ranged attacks. But if you can somehow attack and still maintain total cover or concealment, then you aren't being observed, so what's to keep you from hiding? Is there a rule that says you can't hide after an attack, even if you meet all the other requirements?

 

[moritheil]

I'm not sure how I could understand running or charging as referring to the sniping rules... what makes you think the attacking option does?

Well, charging is admittedly not explained by that, but the rest is.

Normally you can't hide following a melee attack because you're being observed. The sniping rule is a special exception to that for ranged attacks. But if you can somehow attack and still maintain total cover or concealment, then you aren't being observed, so what's to keep you from hiding? Is there a rule that says you can't hide after an attack, even if you meet all the other requirements?

OK, that's not a bad line of reasoning. The issue I'm concerned with is not hiding after an attack so much as hiding as part of an attack (which is what you do when you snipe) rather than needing to leave a move action to hide (since hide is normally part of a move action.)

 

[jaelis]

OK, that's not a bad line of reasoning. The issue I'm concerned with is not hiding after an attack so much as hiding as part of an attack (which is what you do when you snipe) rather than needing to leave a move action to hide (since hide is normally part of a move action.)

Oh I see. Well the rules for the action needed to hide are kind of messed up. "Usually none"... how helpful

In practice though, it should really only ever come up with HiPS. (If you're invisible, you're rarely going to screw around trying to hide while you attack.) I don't know how I would play that in a real game, if a ranger tried to stand next to a monster and hide as part of his full attack action. Guess I'm lucky that all our rangers tend to die early

Edit - To avoid this question in my original conundrum, let's say the invisible rogue is using spring attack and trying not to be noticed if he misses.

 

[moritheil]

I asked sukael for this thoughts, and he pointed out that the wording of Hide is "while attacking, running, or charging," not "after."

 

[jaelis]

I asked sukael for this thoughts, and he pointed out that the wording of Hide is "while attacking, running, or charging," not "after."

What do you see as the difference?

 

[moritheil]

What do you see as the difference?

Well, the difference is whether or not you can make a melee attack and then hide. If you can only hide while charging and not after, it means that you can charge hidden for the dex denial. Afterwards, you aren't hidden.

 

[jaelis]

Well... if I hide as part of a move action, then I would normally be considered to still be hiding after that. I would have thought to treat hiding as part of an attack the same way.

On the other hand, from the invisibility rules, we know that if you are struck by an unseen attacker, you know what square he is in. So if you actually hit your target, he knows where you are whether you keeping hiding or not. It would only be an issue if you miss on your attack. (Or if you had reach, I suppose.)