Station Squatting (Player Railroading)

[The Green Adam]

I'm a bit confused of late...(ranty)

...by the attitude of so many "I'm gonna GM this way and you're gonna like or else!". Or else what? There's no game? Yay! You win. No game to play if we can't play your way. Happy. Having fun now?

Who do you think you are gaming for? If its solely for yourself, go find some solo adventures and run yourself through them. Better yet, write a story, determine what everyone does and read it back to yourself whenever you feel like gaming.

I run for me and my players. Al likes to solve puzzles, invent things and to some extent get to know the world. Nelson wants to beat up bad guys, look cool doing it and be known as the biggest bad a** in these here parts. Lynn is certain there are secrets and conspiracies everywhere and she wants to learn them and maybe make a few herself. Ken just wants to hang with his buddies and have some laughs. Rebecca wants action, whatever kind is available be it combat, diplomacy, trade or whathaveyou. Selina (my dear, sweet, Selina) wants to get to know the world and its people. What's the culture, who owns the weapon shop, what's his brother's name and why does he have an eyepath, this green broth is delicious - what's it called?, etc.

So let's see...what does it take to make an adventure in three or four seconds that the players will find irresistable...got it!

So in a nearby town a little girl fell into a well and a friend of players asks for help (For Rebecca and Ken). At the same time, the players were about to head off to a local dungeon to find the treasure noted on a map they found (For Nelson, Al, Rebecca and the others). Its a tough call because tomorrow is the Great Autumn Spirit festival and Selina and Al wanted to enter the Pie Making Contest (Selina, Al and Ken since festivals are often fun and provide comedy relief). Oh yeah, how come the Mayor's not so helpful in saving the girl in the well? What's up with that? (For Lynn).

These and maybe 6 other things are going on in and around the town and any could lead to fun and adventure. What if the dungeon is empty, cleaned out by other looters and adventurers long ago but the well is a secret portal to a watery faerie realm?

Give the players options, hooks and the feeling of freedom to explore and interact with your world in whatever way they want. It saves you a lot of anxiety when they don't go down the north path 100 paces, turn left at exactly the right moment to unavoidably witness the death of a local priest who they have to avenge or the campaign is over. bleh. No thanks. I can do that on WoW.

If the players want to open a bakery, make the quests for ingredients exciting, the customers bizarre, the King a huge fan of Cream Puffs and the rival bakery run by a nasty witch!

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[Teflon Billy]

If players in an heroic adventure game (that was not explicitly about running a bakery) I was DMing tried that. I would burn their bakery to the ground.

Doppleganger and James Wallis "Get it"

Seriously. I allow this kind of dicking around in my campaigns if the players like, but it gets glossed pretty quickly (or if it comes up a lot). Lots of things get the glossed-over treatment.

Sex...


DM: "you are in a tavern, attempting to meet up with your contact from the Bronze Knife Clan, you recieve an note that he wants you to meet him in Cliifwater tomorrow.."

Player: "Well, since we've got the evening free, I will attempt to seduce the barmaid and get her to my room for the evening"

DM: "Done. The next day you guys... "


Shopping...

DM: "Ok, someone said they wanted to purchase some replacement gear...?

Player: "Yeah, that was me. 'Excuse me sir, a fine looking shop you have here. I was hoping you would be able to help me procure a new set of riding boots?"

DM: "Mark off 2 gold. Anyone else need anything?"


Business...

Player: "I was hoping to take my leftover money and set up a bakery"

DM: "Allright, it costs 2000 gold for the building, your Guild charter and a couple of bakers to do the actual baking"

Player: "I was going to do the baking myself"

DM: "Then your place will go under...you are on the road most of the year"


I mean, there is room for roleplay...Diplomacy with powerful NPCs, intra-party rivalry, interrogation scenes, negotiation etc....all good.

But the endless minutiae of shopping, whoring and attempts to leave off an adventuring profession to become a Cooper or a Wainwright?

My gaming time is short enough thanks.

 

[Krensky]

...by the attitude of so many "I'm gonna GM this way and you're gonna like or else!". Or else what? There's no game? Yay! You win. No game to play if we can't play your way. Happy. Having fun now?

I'm puzzled by the whole "We want to set up a bakery and collect ingredients and make bread despite that not being a element of the game we both explicitly and implicitly agreed to play, but you should let us anyway." attitude. Especially since I put ten or twenty hours into it for each hour the players do and they're not paying me, so why do I get less of a say in the world and plot then they do just because I'm behind the screen? If I am not having fun running a game, I will not run it. If that means I play board games, play video games, play in others games, read, or watch TV instead, so be it. My time, my table, my rules. I'm up front about it, and the rules change depending on who's playing and what we decide, but that's how it is. My table is full of people who engage the game and the main plot, help flesh out the world and the people in it, drive their own stories forward, and enjoy themselves.

Who do you think you are gaming for? If its solely for yourself, go find some solo adventures and run yourself through them. Better yet, write a story, determine what everyone does and read it back to yourself whenever you feel like gaming.

I game for myself and my own enjoyment. Part of that is sharing the worlds I imagine and the people and conflicts found within with my players. Or with the GM. Oh, and the whole narrative GM = control freak wanna be author bit is old and offensive.

I run for me and my players. Al likes to solve puzzles, invent things and to some extent get to know the world. Nelson wants to beat up bad guys, look cool doing it and be known as the biggest bad a** in these here parts. Lynn is certain there are secrets and conspiracies everywhere and she wants to learn them and maybe make a few herself. Ken just wants to hang with his buddies and have some laughs. Rebecca wants action, whatever kind is available be it combat, diplomacy, trade or whathaveyou. Selina (my dear, sweet, Selina) wants to get to know the world and its people. What's the culture, who owns the weapon shop, what's his brother's name and why does he have an eyepath, this green broth is delicious - what's it called?, etc.

So let's see...what does it take to make an adventure in three or four seconds that the players will find irresistable...got it!

So in a nearby town a little girl fell into a well and a friend of players asks for help (For Rebecca and Ken). At the same time, the players were about to head off to a local dungeon to find the treasure noted on a map they found (For Nelson, Al, Rebecca and the others). Its a tough call because tomorrow is the Great Autumn Spirit festival and Selina and Al wanted to enter the Pie Making Contest (Selina, Al and Ken since festivals are often fun and provide comedy relief). Oh yeah, how come the Mayor's not so helpful in saving the girl in the well? What's up with that? (For Lynn).

And how does that relate to the primary conflict of the campaign or the characters? Sounds like filler between major plot points. Of those, the only hook that would typically engage me or my players is Timmy falling down the well and the mayor's obstructionism.

These and maybe 6 other things are going on in and around the town and any could lead to fun and adventure. What if the dungeon is empty, cleaned out by other looters and adventurers long ago but the well is a secret portal to a watery faerie realm?

And how do they relate to the primary plot and conflicts of the campaign?

Give the players options, hooks and the feeling of freedom to explore and interact with your world in whatever way they want. It saves you a lot of anxiety when they don't go down the north path 100 paces, turn left at exactly the right moment to unavoidably witness the death of a local priest who they have to avenge or the campaign is over. bleh. No thanks. I can do that on WoW.

Funny, WoW (well, UO) was my first thought when people started suggesting to let them be bakers and adventure for flour. I'm glad you and your players like what you feel is a sandbox. My players and I do not. The games I run are dynamic (the world happens regardless of the players), have a beginning and an end, often have defined goals, and have major conflicts from which, along with the player characters interactions, the game's story flows. The are not tightly scripted, they do not require the players to go 100 paces, turn left, and watch a cut scene. I would not write a night's prep that required them to be somewhere specific to witness something or else it fails.

To use your example: Assume that Brother Bartholomew, the party's cleric, is an orphan from a village a few days carriage ride from the city where the PC's are currently in residence. Bartholomew was raised by the village Priest, a kind and devout man named Father Joacim. They keep in touch by letter. Father Joacum's letters have been a bit terse recently, as if he is worried about something. The one morning Bartholomew wakes up to screaming and pounding on his door. The screaming is the woman who lives next door, and the pounding is the gendarme who want to discuss the body that's been nailed to Bartholomew's door and disemboweled, eyes burnt out, with blasphemes scrawled in blood surrounding it. The body was not there when he came home last night, and he heard nothing while he slept, nor did anyone else in the neighborhood. The body is Father Joacim. Bart's player wants to go home because it and some chips of black marble are all the clues he has. The rest of the party goes because they're his friends. This leads into a plot line involving cultists, scary back woods religion and eventually to the plans of a minor demon to make himself into a god. This plot may or may not relate to the "main quest" of the campaign. If Bart spent the night at the Comte de Mon's apartments after imbibing a bit to heavily, he would come home to discover the scene.

If the players want to open a bakery, make the quests for ingredients exciting, the customers bizarre, the King a huge fan of Cream Puffs and the rival bakery run by a nasty witch!

We already covered this, but I have no interest in such a game. So I will not run it. If this means we don't play an RPG, fine. We can play a board game or a video game, or just shoot the breeze. It's never come up though.

 

[Teflon Billy]

Krensky also "gets it"

 

[Tuft]

I run for me and my players. Al likes to solve puzzles, invent things and to some extent get to know the world. Nelson wants to beat up bad guys, look cool doing it and be known as the biggest bad a** in these here parts. Lynn is certain there are secrets and conspiracies everywhere and she wants to learn them and maybe make a few herself. Ken just wants to hang with his buddies and have some laughs. Rebecca wants action, whatever kind is available be it combat, diplomacy, trade or whathaveyou. Selina (my dear, sweet, Selina) wants to get to know the world and its people. What's the culture, who owns the weapon shop, what's his brother's name and why does he have an eyepath, this green broth is delicious - what's it called?, etc.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter....

Lovely DM - player contact, I must say!

 

[Campbell]

Krensky,

My entire point was that I think the situation with players wanting to open the bakery is better handled out of game than in game. When you attempt to handle it in game generally no one ends up being happy. The players in this situation are apparently unwilling to play ball*, and no amount of burning bakeries down will make them want to play ball*. At this point, it's best to explain that you don't want to run the type of game they want to play. They can either play ball*, part amicably, or you can do something else.

Consider the following situation.

Situation : You have a rules lawyer who keeps slowing down the pace of your game in a way that detracts from the narrative emphasis of your games. Is it better to keep trying to slap him down with rulings until he quits being a rules lawyer or explain to him how he's messing the game up for you and the rest of the players?

I happen to think the passive agressive approach leads to far more wasted time and bad feelings. I really don't like to waste time.

* At least make an attempt to play the sort of game you want to run. Comprimises will of course occur.

Green Adam,

In your example I don't see any indication of your preferences. I also run games for my players' enjoyment as well as mine. I'm just not willing to treat DMing as unpaid service. If a player wants to go off in their own direction I'm fine with that as long as they are willing to do so in a way that's entertaining to me and their fellow players.

Jebus mang. I can't believe I have to defend the right not to spend 8+ hours a week bored off my keister.

 

[The Green Adam]

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter....

Lovely DM - player contact, I must say!

This must be the third or fourth post I've made where I go that response. I should be bloggin' I 'spose.

The thing is, to respond to all those who quoted or notated me at once, I spend the same amount of time as you do probably, creating my world (or worlds since I usually play Sci-Fi RPGs), designing NPCs, Alien Cultures, Derelict Starships or Ruins to explore, etc. There are several possible plot lines. The players are then free to be intrigued (or not) by any, some or all of them. I don't really craft adventures or overall campaign plots, though I will often have a campaign theme or overall idea. The players are free to investigate that plot at their leisure. If I find them lolligagging too much...well perhaps I haven't come up with any ideas or storylines that catch their fancy.

In one campaign set in my primary D&D world the players typically 'take-off' from adventuring following a major, annual Kingdom-wide holiday. We spend the next two or three adventures eating interesting foods, learning about some far away culture or just getting to meet their families back home. These elements often come back many adventures later. When the Ambassador from another country visits and we need to protect him from political assasins the PCs now know a little about the Ambassador's culture and/or the drives of his would-be attackers.

In Teflon Billy's example of Shopping and Business, I would say yes, my games are like his some 60% of the time. However if my players went in and out of the local tavern without asking the barkeep how his wife was or WhitSpear's Wizardry Shop without talking to Mr. WhitSpear and/or his immense Troll-like assistant they would wonder what was wrong.

And I apologize to any who took my 'write a story instead of gaming' too close to heart but it is a pet peeve of mine. I've sat in on a number of GMs who literally read from a script and tell the players what there characters did and such. It sends a cold shiver down my spine. I just can't imagine doing that. For me two thirds of the fun of RPGs if finding out what the players think, what they're going to do and how they're going to react to what I've created for them to encounter. If their reaction is, 'not interested - you never told us what was over that next hill past the Tree Folk. Something about a Dread Lake. What's that? It sounds awesome!' I am overjoyed and more then happy to let them check it out.

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[The Green Adam]

Now then...

Not all my campaigns are completely Sandbox oriented. I love running Star Trek and certainly the plots and conflicts are fairly well structured - Starfleet assigned mission, PC vessel investigates, action and intrigue ensue!

Even here however, I also the players a good deal of freedom to investigate how they wish (within the confines of the universe of course) and always entertain proactive ideas from the players. One PC engineer thought of a way to increase Shield Capacity on the team's vessel using an used idea that fit Trek canon quite well. The Captain approved the project and it helped me generate at least three good subplots and utilize a host of new NPCs. That didn't come from me, it came from a player. It didn't direct from the plot or activities of the crew normally, though it did end up taking one whole session to finalize (at which point players not directly involved went off to do their own character building things).

When it comes to Krensky's questions of 'how does that relate to the primary conflict of the campaign or the characters?' and 'how do they relate to the primary plot and conflicts of the campaign?' I'm not certain I can answer them. Everybody needs a break now and then. How does that time you went to a gaming convention or saw a movie with your significant other or what you did today relate to the primary goals and conflicts of your life? Sometimes PCs just do stuff they like to do. Don't worry, the galaxy will be in danger of destruction again tomorrow.

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[Teflon Billy]

And I apologize to any who took my 'write a story instead of gaming' too close to heart but it is a pet peeve of mine. I've sat in on a number of GMs who literally read from a script and tell the players what there characters did and such. It sends a cold shiver down my spine. I just can't imagine doing that. For me two thirds of the fun of RPGs if finding out what the players think, what they're going to do and how they're going to react to what I've created for them to encounter. If their reaction is, 'not interested - you never told us what was over that next hill past the Tree Folk. Something about a Dread Lake. What's that? It sounds awesome!' I am overjoyed and more then happy to let them check it out.

I think we are probably a lot closer than apart on how we run games. I design a setting pretty thoroughly (but without much depth) and then just turn the players loose. I think I might be blessed, but I've never come across players in my years (and there are a lot of them...players and years ) that were incapable of finding something to do.

So they do whatever they want and at the end of the session, I alter the setting based on their actions.

Write down the names of NPC's I made up that they interacted with, change important NPC's opinions on them based on how much they helped/hindered and prepare the next week's session based on those results.

As a DM "World Building" is the game for me. There is no "thing" they should be doing, but usually anything they want to try/look into/explore/etc...I'll see that there is something there for them.

But again, none of that is really affected or altered by minutiae. Generally I run games that involve some manner of high-level intrigue, war between nations (or cultures) the return of (unwelcome) ancient gods with blood on their minds etc...

My style of DM'ing can definitely allow people who want to dawdle with shopkeepers to do so...but as for the rest? I like to run games about ruthless, cunning men-of-action.

Not Laundry owners, Candle Makers, and Cobblers.

Even if the players really think that would give them a view into what my world is really like.

An Academic Historian (whose name eludes me at the moment) said it best...I'm paraphrasing but it was essentially "History is about what the kings, Popes, Generals movers and Shakers were doing...no one cares what the peasants were up to and no one should. Here's your answer: Subsistence Farming and trying not to die"

I agree with him.

 

[Derren]

An Academic Historian (whose name eludes me at the moment) said it best...I'm paraphrasing but it was essentially "History is about what the kings, Popes, Generals movers and Shakers were doing...no one cares what the peasants were up to and no one should. Here's your answer: Subsistence Farming and trying not to die"

Except that for every time a general changed history a merchant did the same.
It was a slave who challenged the roman empire, it was a merchant guild which shaped the political landscape of northern europe for years and it was not faith which made popes, but the bribes of merchants.
And even when generals did act, their actions were often spurred by what the merchants desire.