Yeah, if you're running an adventure path/quest type campaign then squatting is definitely a problem. In a sandbox campaign it can work well though. The GM can use random event tables etc and flesh out the locale in depth. Of course sometimes the PCs want to do something so mundane it becomes difficult to run a fun RPG. In that case get them to roll up new PCs for the adventure you want to run.
Station Squatting (Player Railroading)
- Thread starter Alikar
- Start date
Angel Tarragon
Dawn Dragon
Its the GMs responsibility to make sure that a plot development takes hold. That means doing whatever it takes to make sure the players take the bait.
If you want the players to go after the plot, give them more than one hook. What I like to do is dangle a number of hooks equal to the amount of people in the part +2. This way there is very little chance of the players not chasing after the plot.
Of course each hook needs to be unique, and yes that takes some effort. It is usually worth the effort than twiddling your thumbs and trying to wing it. Not that there is anything wrong with winging it, but if you've spent countless hours preparing for a specific plot and only dangle one hook and the players don't chase after it, then you're SOL.
If you want the players to go after the plot, give them more than one hook. What I like to do is dangle a number of hooks equal to the amount of people in the part +2. This way there is very little chance of the players not chasing after the plot.
Of course each hook needs to be unique, and yes that takes some effort. It is usually worth the effort than twiddling your thumbs and trying to wing it. Not that there is anything wrong with winging it, but if you've spent countless hours preparing for a specific plot and only dangle one hook and the players don't chase after it, then you're SOL.
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Prism
Explorer
Campaigns can be set up to encompass both styles of play. We played in a celtic/wilderness campaign where the goal was to set up a new village, build a fest hall, gain status, forage and bake (I guess)
Naturally all the local monsters had other ideas. This was a sandbox style campaign where the DM loosely fleshed out the surrounding area and waited to see where we went. If we wanted to become bakers then we had to clear out the local threats to the cake business first.
Naturally all the local monsters had other ideas. This was a sandbox style campaign where the DM loosely fleshed out the surrounding area and waited to see where we went. If we wanted to become bakers then we had to clear out the local threats to the cake business first.
Lhorgrim
Explorer
Usually, when I set up a new campaign, I try to plot out the primary antagonists that will eventually come into conflict with the PCs.
When I plot the "bad guys", I give them a motivation for the actions I'm going to present to the players. If one of the eventual BBEGs is sending forth assassins into the town, I like to have a "why" for those actions. Bad guys have goals in life too!
If the PCs want to ignore the fell goings on in their area to focus on a bakery(or whatever), that's fine. The antagonists' plans are going to progress and escalate. Eventually the PCs will either hire someone to run the bakery business for them, or they'll wind up slaving in their new evil overlord's silver mines. There's a lot more XP in systematically subjugating a region than in making crullers. The antagonists will continue to grow in power while the PCs are running for Mayor of Dinkleburg Springs.
When I plot the "bad guys", I give them a motivation for the actions I'm going to present to the players. If one of the eventual BBEGs is sending forth assassins into the town, I like to have a "why" for those actions. Bad guys have goals in life too!
If the PCs want to ignore the fell goings on in their area to focus on a bakery(or whatever), that's fine. The antagonists' plans are going to progress and escalate. Eventually the PCs will either hire someone to run the bakery business for them, or they'll wind up slaving in their new evil overlord's silver mines. There's a lot more XP in systematically subjugating a region than in making crullers. The antagonists will continue to grow in power while the PCs are running for Mayor of Dinkleburg Springs.
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roguerouge
First Post
All right, here's why I "station squat"...
First, I never ignore plot hooks to station squat. But I squat because there's nothing pressing, not because there's nothing to be done. Don't take it as ignoring the DM. What's the rush? Does it really harm the campaign for the PC to take ten years in game to get to 20th level rather than 1 year?
Second, I squat because I love. When my DMs have been doing their job in world building, I want to explore it. I want to see what happens when I work with their creation. Worlds that are three dimensional, with interesting NPCs, make me want to move in. I'm the guy that takes leadership and starts a mining cooperative. I'm the guy that sits on a dragon egg for a year, just to make sure the dragon chick bonds with me. When I run campaigns, it's an option for the players to run for village council.
Third, I assumed that you wanted some squatting. Why bother making a city if you don't want me to tour it? Why bother having a starter village if you don't want me to get to know the barmaid? Why have all this local color?
Fourth, I squat because I want to contribute to building the world. Running a business is a great way to get access to more NPCs. Hanging out is a great way to create deeper, more complex NPCs through my interactions. It's also better storytelling. Eventually that bar maid is going to want to settle down. At some point, people are going to recognize my PC's smarts or leadership skills.
Fifth, investing time, energy, and imagination in the world makes saving it that much more important.
First, I never ignore plot hooks to station squat. But I squat because there's nothing pressing, not because there's nothing to be done. Don't take it as ignoring the DM. What's the rush? Does it really harm the campaign for the PC to take ten years in game to get to 20th level rather than 1 year?
Second, I squat because I love. When my DMs have been doing their job in world building, I want to explore it. I want to see what happens when I work with their creation. Worlds that are three dimensional, with interesting NPCs, make me want to move in. I'm the guy that takes leadership and starts a mining cooperative. I'm the guy that sits on a dragon egg for a year, just to make sure the dragon chick bonds with me. When I run campaigns, it's an option for the players to run for village council.
Third, I assumed that you wanted some squatting. Why bother making a city if you don't want me to tour it? Why bother having a starter village if you don't want me to get to know the barmaid? Why have all this local color?
Fourth, I squat because I want to contribute to building the world. Running a business is a great way to get access to more NPCs. Hanging out is a great way to create deeper, more complex NPCs through my interactions. It's also better storytelling. Eventually that bar maid is going to want to settle down. At some point, people are going to recognize my PC's smarts or leadership skills.
Fifth, investing time, energy, and imagination in the world makes saving it that much more important.
LostSoul
Adventurer
I think Station Squatting would be better if it was defined as players refusing to engage the game - whatever that game might be.
If your game is all about NPCs and political machinations, and the players refuse to talk to anyone? Same thing.
The DM should convey what kind of game he wants to run. Given that he does that, if the players agree to play that game and then refuse to engage, it's lame. That would be Station Squatting.
If your game is all about NPCs and political machinations, and the players refuse to talk to anyone? Same thing.
The DM should convey what kind of game he wants to run. Given that he does that, if the players agree to play that game and then refuse to engage, it's lame. That would be Station Squatting.
Wow, that article is entertaining, and yet, horrible. I'm not a veteran DM, but I think I can say pretty safely that if I took that attitude into my game I could expect some pretty catastrophic consequences, like resentful players, storyline sabotage and a campaign that slowly grinds to a halt because players start to miss sessions cause seriously, why would they even make the effort to show up?
If players start to do "Station Squatting", that's their way of showing you what they are interested in and what they want to do. What harm would it have done to this DM to go "Ok guys, I have nothing more prepared for the barge this week, we can finish off this gaming session with some easy trading or something, but get ready ready for next week, you want some barge, I'll give you some barge!"
Then next week? Some pirates attack the barge. The players get wind of some extremely rare spice that could be their path to riches if they can find the island (with their barge) and navigate the watery-jungle mega-dungeon inside it (using their barge). Suddenly, a huge tower just springs up out of nowhere in the niddle of a swamp, nobody can get to it to investigate it except the characters (using... you guessed it... their barge).
Seriously man, if their players love their barge? You CAN revolve the adventures and the danger and the stuff AROUND THE FRICKING BARGE. How could this guy not even address this is beyond me. It really just looks like he wrote a linear adventure and is insulted that the player didn't want to follow the line of his written adventure. Some writers are prima-donna like that.
I mean how easy, how drop-dead simple would it have been to go just, well guess what guys turns out you found a hidden river offshoot and you can actually go to (whatever the city they were supposed to go to was called) ON YOUR BARGE!! WOW! I am a fricking GENIUS over here!!
And if the players want to open a bakery... god... ok... They party gets wind of an extremely rare crystalline sugar that only grows in the deepest reaches of some natural caves infested by beholders. And the bakery across the street is already getting a supply of it somehow, threatening to put THEIR bakery out of business. Next week... some troll thugs arrive and offer to start accepting weekly payments of 1000gp for 'protection'. Will they pay, will they fight, or will they start looking for the boss of these thugs and show him what's what when he messes with THEIR bakery? Next week... a client who they sold a cake to ate it and got violently ill and died. She rose two days later as a ghoul. The cityfold are blaming the bakery for this. Are they going to sit back and let the mob burn down THEIR bakery, or are they going to find the truth behind all this?! Next week... the characters suddenly realize that all the cakes that are left undecorated in the kitchen at night, by morning are completely and beautifully finished with drawings and patterns that far surpass anything they would ever be able to do. What's going on here?? Next week....
Right, so anyway, point: If your players are station-squatting, listen to them. They are showing you what's fun for them. LISTEN to them. You CAN make heroic adventurous stuff to accomodate it, and if you already prepped up a lot of stuff ahead of time, you CAN change that stuff a LITTLE bit a still use it.
And really, whoever that guy in that article is, sorry, but IMHO he has no business giving advice to anybody, I mean, I consider myself a newbie at DMing still and already I know better than that (edit-> and it's mostly from reading these forums, go ENWorld! lol)
If players start to do "Station Squatting", that's their way of showing you what they are interested in and what they want to do. What harm would it have done to this DM to go "Ok guys, I have nothing more prepared for the barge this week, we can finish off this gaming session with some easy trading or something, but get ready ready for next week, you want some barge, I'll give you some barge!"
Then next week? Some pirates attack the barge. The players get wind of some extremely rare spice that could be their path to riches if they can find the island (with their barge) and navigate the watery-jungle mega-dungeon inside it (using their barge). Suddenly, a huge tower just springs up out of nowhere in the niddle of a swamp, nobody can get to it to investigate it except the characters (using... you guessed it... their barge).
Seriously man, if their players love their barge? You CAN revolve the adventures and the danger and the stuff AROUND THE FRICKING BARGE. How could this guy not even address this is beyond me. It really just looks like he wrote a linear adventure and is insulted that the player didn't want to follow the line of his written adventure. Some writers are prima-donna like that.
I mean how easy, how drop-dead simple would it have been to go just, well guess what guys turns out you found a hidden river offshoot and you can actually go to (whatever the city they were supposed to go to was called) ON YOUR BARGE!! WOW! I am a fricking GENIUS over here!!
And if the players want to open a bakery... god... ok... They party gets wind of an extremely rare crystalline sugar that only grows in the deepest reaches of some natural caves infested by beholders. And the bakery across the street is already getting a supply of it somehow, threatening to put THEIR bakery out of business. Next week... some troll thugs arrive and offer to start accepting weekly payments of 1000gp for 'protection'. Will they pay, will they fight, or will they start looking for the boss of these thugs and show him what's what when he messes with THEIR bakery? Next week... a client who they sold a cake to ate it and got violently ill and died. She rose two days later as a ghoul. The cityfold are blaming the bakery for this. Are they going to sit back and let the mob burn down THEIR bakery, or are they going to find the truth behind all this?! Next week... the characters suddenly realize that all the cakes that are left undecorated in the kitchen at night, by morning are completely and beautifully finished with drawings and patterns that far surpass anything they would ever be able to do. What's going on here?? Next week....
Right, so anyway, point: If your players are station-squatting, listen to them. They are showing you what's fun for them. LISTEN to them. You CAN make heroic adventurous stuff to accomodate it, and if you already prepped up a lot of stuff ahead of time, you CAN change that stuff a LITTLE bit a still use it.
And really, whoever that guy in that article is, sorry, but IMHO he has no business giving advice to anybody, I mean, I consider myself a newbie at DMing still and already I know better than that (edit-> and it's mostly from reading these forums, go ENWorld! lol)
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Maggan
Writer for CY_BORG, Forbidden Lands and Dragonbane
I think that the primary reason for Wallis not discussing this is that this is a humorous reply to a previous rant. Basically, it's primarily a joke rant, and only secondly advice on running a campaign.
Secondly, it's Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. It's what many players expect to happen in a campaign.
EDIT:
Well, James Wallis is considered by many to be one of the most talented game designers in the business, and he can give me advice on anything game related any time of the day. And I've gamemastered for nigh on 25 years. Few things are as invigorating as some frank and funny perspective on the games I play.
EDIT II:
I agree with this. But, if you as a GM want to play through one of the greatest campaign ever, and the players start squatting a station, you either listen to them which stops you from having your fun, or burn their barge which might be a great thing to get them on the track to finish the campaign, or hand over the GMing to someone else who likes to handle station squatting.
I like the term, btw. "Station squatting". Good term.
EDIT III:
And for completeness, here's the link to the original rant that Wallis replies to:
http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue8/jameswallisruined1.html
/M
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Alikar
First Post
While I agree there is a time and place for running a business I don't think DnD is that type of game. I mean I've heard of players shopping for underwear, which frankly is a ridiculous waste of time. I'd have no issues with them trying to start up a village or protecting their business from a local crime lord, but I don't think they should care about making muffins when the local cult is trying to assasinate the city rulers. Its really a matter of a level of respect for the story and the purpose of the game. I'm not saying that people would be playing wrong or any of that nonsense, but I do think its bad form on the players to not adventure in a game about adventuring.
