Stats, PC's and the effect on a Campaign

[Bauglir]

Whatever works in your game ofc

If you're going to go with a linear pb then I'd recommend you rethink the available points - 78 allows you to go for 3 18s and 3 8s, which could easily get silly if people abuse it. Ofc if your players are trustworthy this won't be a problem.

I'd be interested to see what comes out of this system. Would you mind posting a few of your players' generated stats here when they've made them?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Re: Just Experimenting !!!

The difficulty with linear point buy systems is that high stats give proportionally more benefits than low stats.

This is clearly true in the case of strength (average damage per round= %hit(average damage); since str increases both %hit and average damage, the effect of increasing strength on average damage is exponential rather than mathematical.

It is more generally true, however. A CR <=1 creature with 8 hit points is usually tough enough to withstand one blow from a one-handed weapon. If the fighter has an 18 strength, however, he'll drop that creature with one hit 5 times out of 8. And if he has cleave, he may drop two. Therefore, instead of getting four attacks or so in, the two creatures face a very real possibility of getting no attacks in.

Similarly, the typical 1st level fighter or ranger can get an AC of about 18-19 (chain shirt+shield+16 dex, or splint mail+shield, or chain mail+shield+12-14 dex). If he gets an 18 or 20 dex, however, that goes up to AC 20. When facing goblins or other typical low CR opponents that small increase in AC means that they're only half as likely to hit as they were before. Consequently, it takes 10 attacks (on average) to wound the character instead of 5.

The same is true for tough low level challenges. A goblin warchief in fullplate and large shield (AC 22) is very hard for a 14-15 strength 1st level fighter to hit; an 18 strength fighter hits twice as often. So high stats enable characters to have a chance against foes they aren't really supposed to have a chance against as well.

At higher levels, the effects of stats are less pronounced unless the character focusses on that effect. (But who are we kidding; most characters DO focus on that effect). Being +2 to hit and +3 to damage or +2 AC ahead of where you would otherwise be at your level is a very big advantage.

The non-linear point buy systems recognize this and make that advantage more costly to aquire. Linear point buy systems don't account for it.

I am just experimenting with the Linear Point buy system, I have not definitely decided which way to go, but I think that having to Pay more points for a higher stat than what the stat is actually worth is a bit unfair. I am aware of min/maxing but sometimes it is unavoidable especially in the type of group I play in. I mean we had a Weapon Master whose weapon of choice was a Sythe, and the only reason he chose this was because it has a high critical multiplyer, now who hasn't chosen a weapon that does more damage than another even if it did not fit the character more....well come on now be honest. I have also min/max'ed too and the main reason for min/maxing is to get the best character possible, there is nothing inherently wrong with this, it just requires a little more work in campaign design and monster development. Also you can always limit the amount and strength of magic items given untill they get to such a level that stats are no longer important and experience counts more due to levels and abilites. So that is why I am experimenting with linear point buying as it is straight forward and no one gets left out and if the players do min/max, then I will tailor the campaign accordingly with all my monsters min/max'ed too. Fair enough ? (Evil Laugh to Follow...hahahahaha)

 

[Hackenslash]

Points taken and will be considered.

Thanks for pointing out the Flaw in the Linear Point buy system as I had not thought about it from that angle. So back to the drawing board and maybe I will go a Hybrid Linear system where everything is one for one till you get to sixteen then it costs 2, then seventeen costs 3 and finally an eighteen will cost 4. How about 'dem apples ? Whatever to do decide I will post the final stat rules for my campaign, with example characters that were actually created by the players. Cheers again for all the help and advice.......

 

[Conaill]

Re: Points taken and will be considered.

maybe I will go a Hybrid Linear system where everything is one for one till you get to sixteen then it costs 2, then seventeen costs 3 and finally an eighteen will cost 4.

How about one where a 15 or 16 cost 2, and a 17 or 18 cost 3?

Just kidding, that's the official point buy table in the DMG, if you hadn't recognized it yet. The only difference with your progression is that you've made 15, 16 and 17 just one point cheaper. An 18 still comes out to 16 points (starting at 8 = 0pts).

If you are going to draft up your own point-buy table, I would strongle encourage you to put price increases when going from an odd to an even stat. The DMG pointbuy goofed up on that IMHO. They should have put the increases at 17->18, 15->16, and possibly 13->14 as well.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Re: Re: Points taken and will be considered.

IMO, putting a 14 at two points would be too much. The difficulty is that the problem of non-linear benefits works both ways and a 14 is about the minimum a character can have in their prime attribute and still be viable. If you start increasing the number of points at 14, 15s and 16s will be too expensive relative to 12s in non primary attributes. Now a system like this

Stat-Cost
9-1
10-2
11-3
12-4
13-5
14-7
15-9
16-12
17-15
18-18

could work but you'd have to give more than 28 points to make viable characters. (The iconic 15-14-13-12-10-8 spread works out to 27 points instead of 25 points under this system; 28 point buy would probably translate into 31-32 points and 32 point buy would probably be 35-36 points).

Now, starting the attribute cost increase with the bump from 15 to 16 instead of from 14 to 15 is a great idea.

If you are going to draft up your own point-buy table, I would strongle encourage you to put price increases when going from an odd to an even stat. The DMG pointbuy goofed up on that IMHO. They should have put the increases at 17->18, 15->16, and possibly 13->14 as well.

 

[Ogre Mage]

Stats

I like the method our GM used. We did the standard 4d6 drop lowest die arranged to taste, with the option of once during the process rerolling the lowest die instead (this is called the floating reroll in the DMG). We then created another stat block with the 32-point buy system. Players then compared the two to see which they liked better. One player got lucky and rolled 18, 16, 15, 13, 12 and 8 using the 4d6 method, and did not bother with the point-buy. However, everyone else had at least above-average (but not overpowered) characters because of the 32 point-buy.

 

[Hackenslash]

OK, I'm at home now and have messed about with my new stat generator...ish ?

Ok here goes. All stats. start at 8, then it's one for one till you reach 15. If you want to increase to 16 you need to spend 2 points, if you want a 17 you need 3 points, if you want an almighty 18, then you need 4 points. All before racial modifiers and all of the above in addition to the points you spent to get your stats to 15 in the first place. Eg. you need 7 points to get your stats to 15 but then you need a further 2 points to get your stat to 16 and then another 3 points to get it to 17 and then finally another 4 points to get it to an 18. Now the total amount of points you get is.........drum roll please..............38. So here are the sample characters I have created, let me know what you all think. Feel free to criticise !!!

Paladin: Str-16, Dex-12, Con-15, Int-11, Wis-14, Cha-16.

Wizard: Str-10, Dex-16, Con-12, Int-18, Wis-14, Cha-9.

Cleric: Str-14, Dex-10, Con-14, Int-10, Wis-18, Cha-14.

Rogue: Str-12, Dex-18, Con-14, Int-16, Wis-8, Cha-12.

Barbarian: Str-18, Dex-14, Con-17, Int-8, Wis-12, Cha-8.

 

[Artoomis]

Your system looks workable to me. Good,. but not insanely so, characters can be made with lots of flexibility.

 

[Conaill]

Yowza! Considering your point-buy is almost identical to the standard one (1pt cheaper for 15, 16, and 17), 38 points seem awfully high. That's definitely equivalent to at least a +1 ECL.

Why do you feel everyone needs to have at least one 18 anyway? A 16 is already well above the average man in the streets.

 

[Harold as a Verb]

In our campaign:

We use the 'default array' (15-14-13-12-10-8), plus 2 points to spend however we like (unweighted ... or to use the term many people have here: "linear"). That's it.

We like it. We can push up those odd values to evens (15=>16, 13=>14) for best level 1 bonuses, throw the points in the weak 8 to eliminate any minuses, or throw them onto the highest stat, turning the 15 into 17 for a "head-start" on a very focussed character's progression ... or ... well, anything else we feel most appropriate for the character, really.

Just enough flexibility to give characters, well, "character", and (IOE) pretty well balanced. It is possible to really max out a single attribute (starting half-orc STR at 19, for example) but there is an appropriate opportunity cost in terms of the overall "build" of the character in doing so. Works for us, anyway.