statue of baphomet in detroit - discuss civily

[Sacrosanct]

Considering how our secular world has attacked all religious symbols, ... to one where one can not say "Merry Christmas",...

Who is saying you can't say "Merry Christmas"?

 

[Legatus Legionis]

The statue was not art for the sake of art. I do not agree with the "protest art" aspect either.

They (satanist) tried to exploit a loophole so they could display an idol of the "fallen one" as they had originally planned on public land. Once the courts blocked all religious symbols from public spaces, they turned to an industrial "private" location.

Who is saying you can't say "Merry Christmas"?

I have been in stores in December where the sales associates had to say "Happy Holiday". When asked why they don't say "Merry Christmas", was told they had to by management so as to not offend non-Christians, while still getting the $ale$. All signage/flyers must not mention Christmas in any way.

News channels also have forgone to the "politically - Happy holidays", as too newspapers, media, etc.

 

[Wild Gazebo]

The statue was not art for the sake of art. I do not agree with the "protest art" aspect either.

They (satanist) tried to exploit a loophole so they could display an idol of the "fallen one" as they had originally planned on public land. Once the courts blocked all religious symbols from public spaces, they turned to an industrial "private" location.



I have been in stores in December where the sales associates had to say "Happy Holiday". When asked why they don't say "Merry Christmas", was told they had to by management so as to not offend non-Christians, while still getting the $ale$. All signage/flyers must not mention Christmas in any way.

News channels also have forgone to the "politically - Happy holidays", as too newspapers, media, etc.

This in no way means people can't say 'Merry Christmas.' These are business decisions so as to not ostracize people. Simply put, they make more money when people feel more included. Employees are paid to represent the company and thus should speak in a manner that benefits the company. Public organizations do the same thing; but, their 'money' is productivity and community...so they use general language to make that environment better and hopefully more efficient. Citizens all over the US have the liberty to say what they want. They don't have the liberty to avoid criticism though.

 

[Umbran]

The statue was not art for the sake of art.

Neither was the statue with the Ten Commandments they were attempting to combat. That one was art for sake of a religious message. Which is fine in general, just not on government grounds.

I do not agree with the "protest art" aspect either.

You don't agree that "protest art" is valid? Or do you not agree that this was protest art?

Once the courts blocked all religious symbols from public spaces, they turned to an industrial "private" location.

And? In a private location (meaning privately owned), they certainly have the right to have it - freedom of speech, and all that.

I have been in stores in December where the sales associates had to say "Happy Holiday".

Given that they are saying it from before Thanksgiving through New Year's, it makes a whole lot of sense to say "Happy Holidays". Plural. Because it is several holidays in a row, several of which are not Christmas.

"Merry Christmas" is exclusive to all other holidays. "Happy Holidays" is inclusive of any and all. I fail to see why a policy to be inclusive is a problem.

 

[MechaPilot]

There is an assumption by many Christian lawmakers that theirs is the only religion and so, when the make laws designed to protect religious "freedoms" they don't realize the can of worms they are opening.

Lawmakers often forget that religious freedom requires freedom from religion. It's often either difficult or impossible to be a member of one faith while being legally obligated to obey the rules of another faith.

 

[MechaPilot]

I have been in stores in December where the sales associates had to say "Happy Holiday". When asked why they don't say "Merry Christmas", was told they had to by management so as to not offend non-Christians, while still getting the $ale$. All signage/flyers must not mention Christmas in any way.

News channels also have forgone to the "politically - Happy holidays", as too newspapers, media, etc.

I work in fast food and have worked in retail. At my current location, there are no holiday instructions (though I generally wait for the customer to offer whatever seasons greetings they think is appropriate before echoing it back). However, at the retail chain that I used to work at we were instructed to say Happy Holidays if we were going to blindly offer a seasonal greeting to a customer. if a customer said Merry Christmas to us, we were allowed to say it back to them.

What it ultimately comes down to is money. People like to shop where they feel welcome. That's the main reason why people in customer service get fired for being rude: alienating a customer can mean losing that customer for life. The same is true of various media that rely on selling a service (whether it's news, entertainment, or whatever).

 

[KirayaTiDrekan]

Christianity has enjoyed the privilege of being assumed to be "default" for a long time in the U.S. Being denied privilege is not the same as being denied freedom. Lack of default status is not persecution.

 

[tomBitonti]

I dunno. Is the statue a protest, or representative of a true belief? Also, many people would find the statue to be extremely offensive, the same as many other symbols are offensive.

That means a public display is a problem.

A private showing is another matter.

Thx!

TomB

 

[pedr]

Surely the point here is that the state was pretending that a public display of the Ten Commandments was art and not an endorsement of a particular religion so this sculpture was created to challenge that mischaracterisation by seeking to install more "art" which would appear to a reasonable viewer as being the endorsement of a different religion.

The creators of this sculpture almost certainly wish that the situation never arose, and that Oklahoma hadn't installed a Ten Commandments sculpture at the State Capitol, and hadn't used misleading rhetoric to attempt to justify it. If Oklahoma had admitted that it was a religious display, the legal opposition would have been simpler, but by seeking to defend it as non-religious - as something in a monument park paid for by a private donor - they opened the way for the proposal for alternative monuments.

Ironically Oklahoma lost the challenge to the constitutionality of the monument at the State Supreme Court, so the Baphomet sculptors found an alternative site for it, but Oklahoma is defying the determination that the Ten Commandments sculpture is unconstitutional and considering changing the state constitution, though how you could create a state constitution which allowed state displays of Christian religion but not other religions while remaining compliant with the U.S. Constitution is a mystery to me. So for now the Christian monument is up, and the non-Christian one isn't.

 

[Ryujin]

Surely the point here is that the state was pretending that a public display of the Ten Commandments was art and not an endorsement of a particular religion so this sculpture was created to challenge that mischaracterisation by seeking to install more "art" which would appear to a reasonable viewer as being the endorsement of a different religion.

The creators of this sculpture almost certainly wish that the situation never arose, and that Oklahoma hadn't installed a Ten Commandments sculpture at the State Capitol, and hadn't used misleading rhetoric to attempt to justify it. If Oklahoma had admitted that it was a religious display, the legal opposition would have been simpler, but by seeking to defend it as non-religious - as something in a monument park paid for by a private donor - they opened the way for the proposal for alternative monuments.

Ironically Oklahoma lost the challenge to the constitutionality of the monument at the State Supreme Court, so the Baphomet sculptors found an alternative site for it, but Oklahoma is defying the determination that the Ten Commandments sculpture is unconstitutional and considering changing the state constitution, though how you could create a state constitution which allowed state displays of Christian religion but not other religions while remaining compliant with the U.S. Constitution is a mystery to me. So for now the Christian monument is up, and the non-Christian one isn't.

Such is the way of things in a country that enshrines the separation of Church and State in law, but in which no candidate for State of Federal office would ever be elected without referencing God.