D&D 5E Stealth and Illusion

[TaranTheWanderer]

Generally, if you are standing on the other side of a door, I give disadvantage to perception checks to hear what's on the other side. Characters who 'listen at the door' and put their ear against the door can mitigate the penalty.

For hiding, the door just gives you full cover which is an opportunity to use stealth to hide. The people on the other side get to make perception at disadvantage to hear you sneaking (they can't spot you because of full cover).

So, replace the door with an illusion: You have full cover which allows you to stealth. No disadvantage to perception checks because there is no barrier muffling the sound.

In both situations, the person in heavy armour has disadvantage when sneaking. That's just how I do it.

Different ways to do it:

You could do it the reverse and just give everyone advantage to sneak and no penalty to perception. Or, if doors are really, really thick, you can give disadvantage to perception and advantage to sneak. removing the door with an illusion would still negate the 'muffling' property of the door and negate the bonuses.

 

[MarkB]

For me the question is not if a Stealth check is "required", because that assumes there is a choice in the matter.

I always take it from the POV of the person trying to find enemies. The only way they can notice people who aren't out in the open is to compare their Passive Perception to an enemy's Stealth check. That Stealth check is the DC. Which means that any person that is trying to remain unnoticed HAS to roll a Stealth check because that is the only way a DC will be generated for a person's Passive Perception to compare against.

In the illusion's case... one of the requirements for avoiding notice (to start with) is to be out of view. Being behind an illusion provides that. You then couple that with trying to avoid making noise and you have succeeded in setting up the situation where any viewer needs to use their PP to find you Thus at that point the character has no choice but to make a Stealth check, as that is the only we have to figure out just how well they succeeded (by generating a DC to compare against.)

Pretty much this. A character needs to be out of line-of-sight in order to attempt to hide, and the illusion is what is allowing this - so it's the reason they're getting a Stealth check at all. There's no reason to have it also provide advantage to the check.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Really great advice so far!

to add to this: what about not moving. So I make the cavern wall “cover me” and don’t move an inch/hold my breath.

what about advantage on the roll? The creatures walking into the are are carrying equipment and clanking: you are still and unseen.

would that give you advantage? I am trying to negate disadvantage for my armor. My character is unoptimized but I am trying to think of strategies to mitigate this.

So still risk, still a roll but any weaseling out of the disadvantage?

I am playing a fat not too dexterous tiefling...

 

[Oofta]

Before I make or ask for a perception check (active or passive) one thing has to be satisfied. Is there a reasonable chance that whoever is doing the hiding could be perceived. I can't see or detect someone halfway across the world, I have no ability to detect someone playing a one-man-band unless I can see or hear them.

So it's similar with your illusionary wall for me. Depending on the illusion it might work, but how long can you hold your breath? How long do you need to hold absolutely still? How do you know what the patrol is doing and how long you have to hold stock still holding your breath? Is there a chance for the patrol to hear a weird echo they weren't expecting as the illusionary wall doesn't reflect sound? So it's situational.

In my home game the biggest potential weakness would still be the illusion and whether the patrol is familiar with the area.

 

[MarkB]

Really great advice so far!

to add to this: what about not moving. So I make the cavern wall “cover me” and don’t move an inch/hold my breath.

what about advantage on the roll? The creatures walking into the are are carrying equipment and clanking: you are still and unseen.

would that give you advantage? I am trying to negate disadvantage for my armor. My character is unoptimized but I am trying to think of strategies to mitigate this.

So still risk, still a roll but any weaseling out of the disadvantage?

I am playing a fat not too dexterous tiefling...

The thing is, everything you're describing yourself as doing, aside from the illusion, are things that any other person trying to remain hidden would do. And they're exactly the sort of things that armour would interfere with. It's clanky and noisy, so small movements that wouldn't make any noise for another character will cause you to rattle, and it's uncomfortable, so remaining completely immobile for an extended period is more of a strain.

 

[Oofta]

The thing is, everything you're describing yourself as doing, aside from the illusion, are things that any other person trying to remain hidden would do. And they're exactly the sort of things that armour would interfere with. It's clanky and noisy, so small movements that wouldn't make any noise for another character will cause you to rattle, and it's uncomfortable, so remaining completely immobile for an extended period is more of a strain.

On a side note, the idea that people "clank" when they're in heavy armor is kind of a myth. Cheap stuff put together out of old road signs by someone in the SCA that doesn't know what they're doing? Probably noisy as heck. Real armor? Well, you'll probably have a gambeson underneath and leather lining to protect from one piece of metal scratching the other. The noise of well made armor makes is overstated. Probably about as noisy as real leather armor would be.

Which doesn't really matter if the person wearing it is standing still and not moving around IMHO.

P.S. Not that I've changed the rules in my campaign because I don't need D&D to be particularly realistic. On the other hand I don't penalize more than the rules say either for "realism".

 

[Warpiglet-7]

All great info.

what I am trying to do is occasionally freeze under optimal conditions and hope a patrol walks past or wandering monster.

In effect I am trying to get rid of disadvantage while being still in chain mail briefly.

imagine boxes in a storage area and being “in” one of them, a fake one, being still. Or behind a fake “closed door.”

hoping the dm would give a straight stealth roll without disadvantage. Sounds like a mixed consensus so far.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Really great advice so far!

to add to this: what about not moving. So I make the cavern wall “cover me” and don’t move an inch/hold my breath.

what about advantage on the roll? The creatures walking into the are are carrying equipment and clanking: you are still and unseen.

would that give you advantage? I am trying to negate disadvantage for my armor. My character is unoptimized but I am trying to think of strategies to mitigate this.

So still risk, still a roll but any weaseling out of the disadvantage?

I am playing a fat not too dexterous tiefling...

That would be up to the DM... and most likely would be based upon how often your group ordinarily walks in "stealth mode" through dungeons and such (and the DM is making checks to see if creatures hear you move.)

There is nothing in the rules mechanically that separates "moving silently" from "silent but not moving". In both cases the rule is you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check to set your DC, and people in some medium armors and heavy armors have disadvantage on it. Now perhaps you and/or your DM thinks there should be a mechanical difference between the two-- remaining silent while moving is harder than remaining silent while standing still. In that regard, perhaps the idea of not having disadvantage while wearing certain armors if you stand still and do not move might be a worthwhile rules adaptation. It's not technically in the rules, but if it makes sense for your table, then go for it.

I know at my tables our players "move silently" as a group so infrequently that there's no reason for us to have that rules split. Our cleric and paladin just roll with disadvantage for any stealth checks whether they move or not because it's just easier to remember. But if your table prizes moving silently more greatly... then see if your DM would go for it.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

That would be up to the DM... and most likely would be based upon how often your group ordinarily walks in "stealth mode" through dungeons and such (and the DM is making checks to see if creatures hear you move.)

There is nothing in the rules mechanically that separates "moving silently" from "silent but not moving". In both cases the rule is you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check to set your DC, and people in some medium armors and heavy armors have disadvantage on it. Now perhaps you and/or your DM thinks there should be a mechanical difference between the two-- remaining silent while moving is harder than remaining silent while standing still. In that regard, perhaps the idea of not having disadvantage while wearing certain armors if you stand still and do not move might be a worthwhile rules adaptation. It's not technically in the rules, but if it makes sense for your table, then go for it.

I know at my tables our players "move silently" as a group so infrequently that there's no reason for us to have that rules split. Our cleric and paladin just roll with disadvantage for any stealth checks whether they move or not because it's just easier to remember. But if your table prizes moving silently more greatly... then see if your DM would go for it.

Yes. My character will be flying solo at first. He will be a fighter with the charlatan criminal background. For Eldritch Knight plan I’m taking minor illusion and disguise self. Later magic initiate for a few more options.

Basically I am trying to play a thieving character with a 10 dex and chainmail but with magic to compensate. I do plan to chat with the dm.

Just wanted a novel approach. Overpowered is not a worry here.

Still undecided actually in terms of tiefling type...

 

[DEFCON 1]

Easiest way to get rid of the disadvantage on Stealth checks is to just wear a Medium armor without a disad penalty. Chain shirt to start with, and buy breastplate ASAP. Then you don't have to worry about it. Yeah, your AC is going to be several points lower, but that's the trade-off. A low-DEX fighter trying to be sneaky will have to sacrifice either their sneakiness or their defense.

The only other options would be to either take the Medium Armor Master feat (which removes the disad from medium armors) or see if your DM would let you create your own magical cantrip that was a under-powered type of Silence spell which would reduce the sounds that armor makes for an hour (removing the disadvantage to stealth penalty on all armors.) If you're to blow one of your two cantrips on this just for flavor's sake... they might go along with it.