Chris_Nightwing
First Post
The rules for stealth in the current playtest draft feel like they're almost there, but not quite right. In particular the way that the cloak and boots of elvenkind have been implemented leave a few questions as to how exactly the various skills interact in the stealth/perception system. I thought I'd try to lay out how I think the system might be better set out so that it was clearer what the effect of different magic and magic items would have. I apologise for my abuse of the english language, I know that stealth is not really a verb, but it's sense-neutral.
First of all, let's not restrict ourselves to considering only the visual and audible aspects of stealth: at the end of the day, what really matters is to what extent the perceiver is aware of the stealther, and to that end I propose three states of awareness:
You might be oblivious to anyone attempting stealth in your vicinity, though this doesn't mean that you aren't alert, indeed you might be asleep, busy doing something, or deliberately on guard. The key fact about this state is that you aren't actively trying to perceive the stealther, and so a passive score (rather than a d20 roll) is more appropriate for any opposed checks that might be incurred. Not only does this give the stealther a fair chance, if they are good enough, of winning opposed checks, it also means the DM can use stealthed creatures without giving away the knowledge of said creatures by calling for a perception check. I would suggest that the passive scores be something like 0 if you are asleep, 5 if you are awake but busy and 10 if you are on guard, modified by your wisdom score and any appropriate skill of course.
The next step up is being suspicious of a stealther in your vicinity. This is most likely as a result of a stealther failing a check against you, but it covers any case where there's a reason, in-character, to believe that someone is attempting stealth. To be completely clear: whilst you can say your character is suspicious, they are mechanically oblivious if there hasn't been a mechanical effect to provoke their suspicion. When you are suspicious, you are no longer relying on your passive senses, and make active d20 rolls to both look for stealthers and in reaction to stealth attempts. Now, with a d20 roll, your perception becomes a lot more variable, so anyone in the suspicious state can freely downgrade themselves to the oblivious state - this carries its own penalties (see below).
The final step is being aware of a stealther in your vicinity. This doesn't necessarily mean that you can perceive them with all your senses, but you know precisely where they are and can therefore attempt to target them with attacks and area and attack spells (with appropriate penalties if you can't perceive them with your primary sense), but not targetted spells that offer a save without a to-hit roll, or auto-hit spells. You would never voluntarily downgrade your status from aware, but it is possible that a stealther can downgrade you to suspicious if they can deceive you again.
So how do different senses interact with stealth? Well, as far as I can tell, all creatures have primary and secondary senses for these purposes. In order to make attacks on a creature without penalty, you must be able to perceive them with your primary sense, but to be suspicious or aware of them you need only be able to perceive them with any sense. For player characters, it's clear that sight is the primary sense, hearing is secondary and smell, touch and taste don't help at all. For many other creatures, smell might be a secondary sense, and for some unusual cases touch (tremorsense) or hearing (echolocation) might be primary senses. I think this distinction is key to making the stealth/perception system transparent and usable. Does this mean we need separate rolls for each sense? Well that's one way to approach it, but it effectively puts the stealther at a disadvantage because only one failure reveals them. If the situation is such that multiple senses need deceiving, it seems awkward to add one skill OR the other to the check, if only because a guard can use spot against a thief using move silently. I don't have a solution to this: I might have to run the numbers and see if separate checks are mathematically plausible in the framework of active/passive checks. In some ways I like them separate because it encourages trying to avoid one or other of the checks.
How do transitions between the different states occur? It's a clear hierarchy, so let's be clear that you cannot choose to move from oblivious to suspicious to aware, but you may choose to move from aware to suspicious to oblivious whenever you feel like it (though you shouldn't necessarily want to). In order to go from oblivious to suspicious, one of your senses has to perceive the stealther. Only the senses that are relevant should be tested. For instance, if you approach a guard from behind (and it's clear that they are static, not looking all around themselves), then you shouldn't be able to use your spot skill. If you're approaching a bear from downwind, they won't be able to smell you coming. Generally it should be made clear before an attempt is made which skills will be relevant. If the stealther fails a check, then the perceiver becomes suspicious, though if you're approaching a guard from behind on an infinite flat plane, they would become aware of you immediately. Generally though, they should pass through the suspicious state first - there is always some piece of cover to stand behind quietly, or some background noise that might confuse them as to your exact location. To go from suspicious to aware, the perceiver has to actively seek you out with one of their senses OR you have to attempt to deceive them again and fail. Obviously if they choose to seek you with a sense that will never work, say listening when you have said you're not moving, then it has no chance of success.
How does all this effect surprise? I don't like the current surprise rule, but whatever you're using the state of awareness needs to affect whether you can be surprised or not. Clearly if you are aware of a stealther, whether or not you can target them without penalty, you cannot be surprised by them. For the other two states, I think it's neccessary to offer two different forms of surprise. When oblivious, a successful stealther has clearly got the jump on you, and should rightly get to act first, with advantage on any attacks made. If you like the current rule of an entire free round, then use that for this state. When suspicious, it's going to be difficult to surprise you - in this case I would offer the stealther the right to act first, but without advantage on any attacks made. This way, there is a clear reason to remain suspicious, even if you are having to roll for your perception checks.
How do the relevant spells and magic items effect this system? Hopefully it would be clear from the spell and item descriptions, but I'll lay out the most common magic. Invisibility should be complete, and frankly a higher level effect, such that spot would not apply. You would also never be fully targettable by those who use sight as their primary sense. Silence should also be complete, and local to oneself (so no weird listening for lack of certain sounds to find someone) and make listen redundant. Cloaks and Boots of Elvenkind are less powerful than these spells, and ought to grant advantage on the relevant checks, and how they interact depends on whether you are using either/or, additive or separate skill checks.
TLDR: stealth should not be a list of conditions you either have or do not have, but a more carefully thought out system.
First of all, let's not restrict ourselves to considering only the visual and audible aspects of stealth: at the end of the day, what really matters is to what extent the perceiver is aware of the stealther, and to that end I propose three states of awareness:
You might be oblivious to anyone attempting stealth in your vicinity, though this doesn't mean that you aren't alert, indeed you might be asleep, busy doing something, or deliberately on guard. The key fact about this state is that you aren't actively trying to perceive the stealther, and so a passive score (rather than a d20 roll) is more appropriate for any opposed checks that might be incurred. Not only does this give the stealther a fair chance, if they are good enough, of winning opposed checks, it also means the DM can use stealthed creatures without giving away the knowledge of said creatures by calling for a perception check. I would suggest that the passive scores be something like 0 if you are asleep, 5 if you are awake but busy and 10 if you are on guard, modified by your wisdom score and any appropriate skill of course.
The next step up is being suspicious of a stealther in your vicinity. This is most likely as a result of a stealther failing a check against you, but it covers any case where there's a reason, in-character, to believe that someone is attempting stealth. To be completely clear: whilst you can say your character is suspicious, they are mechanically oblivious if there hasn't been a mechanical effect to provoke their suspicion. When you are suspicious, you are no longer relying on your passive senses, and make active d20 rolls to both look for stealthers and in reaction to stealth attempts. Now, with a d20 roll, your perception becomes a lot more variable, so anyone in the suspicious state can freely downgrade themselves to the oblivious state - this carries its own penalties (see below).
The final step is being aware of a stealther in your vicinity. This doesn't necessarily mean that you can perceive them with all your senses, but you know precisely where they are and can therefore attempt to target them with attacks and area and attack spells (with appropriate penalties if you can't perceive them with your primary sense), but not targetted spells that offer a save without a to-hit roll, or auto-hit spells. You would never voluntarily downgrade your status from aware, but it is possible that a stealther can downgrade you to suspicious if they can deceive you again.
So how do different senses interact with stealth? Well, as far as I can tell, all creatures have primary and secondary senses for these purposes. In order to make attacks on a creature without penalty, you must be able to perceive them with your primary sense, but to be suspicious or aware of them you need only be able to perceive them with any sense. For player characters, it's clear that sight is the primary sense, hearing is secondary and smell, touch and taste don't help at all. For many other creatures, smell might be a secondary sense, and for some unusual cases touch (tremorsense) or hearing (echolocation) might be primary senses. I think this distinction is key to making the stealth/perception system transparent and usable. Does this mean we need separate rolls for each sense? Well that's one way to approach it, but it effectively puts the stealther at a disadvantage because only one failure reveals them. If the situation is such that multiple senses need deceiving, it seems awkward to add one skill OR the other to the check, if only because a guard can use spot against a thief using move silently. I don't have a solution to this: I might have to run the numbers and see if separate checks are mathematically plausible in the framework of active/passive checks. In some ways I like them separate because it encourages trying to avoid one or other of the checks.
How do transitions between the different states occur? It's a clear hierarchy, so let's be clear that you cannot choose to move from oblivious to suspicious to aware, but you may choose to move from aware to suspicious to oblivious whenever you feel like it (though you shouldn't necessarily want to). In order to go from oblivious to suspicious, one of your senses has to perceive the stealther. Only the senses that are relevant should be tested. For instance, if you approach a guard from behind (and it's clear that they are static, not looking all around themselves), then you shouldn't be able to use your spot skill. If you're approaching a bear from downwind, they won't be able to smell you coming. Generally it should be made clear before an attempt is made which skills will be relevant. If the stealther fails a check, then the perceiver becomes suspicious, though if you're approaching a guard from behind on an infinite flat plane, they would become aware of you immediately. Generally though, they should pass through the suspicious state first - there is always some piece of cover to stand behind quietly, or some background noise that might confuse them as to your exact location. To go from suspicious to aware, the perceiver has to actively seek you out with one of their senses OR you have to attempt to deceive them again and fail. Obviously if they choose to seek you with a sense that will never work, say listening when you have said you're not moving, then it has no chance of success.
How does all this effect surprise? I don't like the current surprise rule, but whatever you're using the state of awareness needs to affect whether you can be surprised or not. Clearly if you are aware of a stealther, whether or not you can target them without penalty, you cannot be surprised by them. For the other two states, I think it's neccessary to offer two different forms of surprise. When oblivious, a successful stealther has clearly got the jump on you, and should rightly get to act first, with advantage on any attacks made. If you like the current rule of an entire free round, then use that for this state. When suspicious, it's going to be difficult to surprise you - in this case I would offer the stealther the right to act first, but without advantage on any attacks made. This way, there is a clear reason to remain suspicious, even if you are having to roll for your perception checks.
How do the relevant spells and magic items effect this system? Hopefully it would be clear from the spell and item descriptions, but I'll lay out the most common magic. Invisibility should be complete, and frankly a higher level effect, such that spot would not apply. You would also never be fully targettable by those who use sight as their primary sense. Silence should also be complete, and local to oneself (so no weird listening for lack of certain sounds to find someone) and make listen redundant. Cloaks and Boots of Elvenkind are less powerful than these spells, and ought to grant advantage on the relevant checks, and how they interact depends on whether you are using either/or, additive or separate skill checks.
TLDR: stealth should not be a list of conditions you either have or do not have, but a more carefully thought out system.
