Stealth/Sneak Attack "Rogue" Build Advice

[Herobizkit]

Call me old-fashioned, but you can generally never go wrong with 4 levels of Warrior strapped to Rogue. And poo on Dandu - 4 levels of Monk ain't too shabby either.

I gotta agree with everyone else, though. If your DM enforces LA, it's best to take something with as little LA as possible.

 

[Dandu]

And poo on the entire charop community for agreeing with me on that.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

And poo on the entire charop community for agreeing with me on that.

Poll results: 51.8% do use monk in practical optimization.

Even if in the thread itself most people who comment voted for the other options, how the hell is that "the entire charop community"?

That said...I myself love the idea and flavor of monk and similar martial arts classes, but am willing to admit it's woefully underpowered in a "wow, Fighter's pretty freaking awesome, now that I think about it!" kind of way. I have never used more than a 1-2 level dip in any build unless I was mainly playing as a monk. And even then...I was playing a primarily monk character in spite of the weak class features, not because of them.

EDIT: [Insert snide remark about the entire char op community being 56 people]

 

[Herobizkit]

Haha I'm not the "squeeze every drop of juice" type of player, so I'm comfortable with dipping more than two levels in Monk if it gives me the array of abilities I want. Dandu and I had a chat about Monks in a previous thread; glad to see he's got a good memory.

In the OP's case, 3 levels will give him +10 movement and kill his flurry penalties, effectively giving him a better TWF for free. If he's a striker, he'll want to hit as fast and as often as possible... plus, as it's been pointed out, you CAN use TWF AND flurry if you're so inclined. Add on any custom "make any weapon you want a Flurry weapon" feat and you're dancing. Of course, he's already doing as much damage bare-handed as most of his Small monk weapons, so meh.

The 4th level gives him the Ki strike, meaning he'll always have a magic weapon, which also goes up a die of damage. Now he's got a d6 "magic punch", twice a round, with all sorts of sneak attackery thrown on top and good movement to get into good position.

 

[Jinete]

I would highly recommend taking two levels of Swordsage. This can give you two great stances, one that lets you flank when you and an ally are adjacent to the enemy, and a 2-nd lvl one which gives you +2d6 sneak attack. Top it off with a couple of cool maneuvers, i.e. swift greater invisibility during your turn, and the wisdom bonus to AC and you've got a winner.
I've just finished a campaign as rogue 10/swordsage 2, and I never regretted taking those 2 swordsage levels.

 

[Dandu]

Poll results: 51.8% do use monk in practical optimization.

Read carefully. No one uses it for more than 2 levels. That was the point I was trying to make, not that people do not use monks.

Even if in the thread itself most people who comment voted for the other options, how the hell is that "the entire charop community"?

If you went on the d20 Charop forums on WotC (from which a lot of the BG optimization crowd came from) they'd say the same thing.



In the OP's case, 3 levels will give him +10 movement [/quote]Enhancement bonus to movement. Boots of Striding and Springing would do the exact same thing. The boots are actually better, because they also give a +5 to jump in addition to the +4 boost from the speed bonus. And no, they do not stack with the monk's speed increase.

and kill his flurry penalties

No. You take a -2 penalty to flurry until level 5 where it becomes a -1 penalty. You do not lose the penalty until level 9.

Check the table for FoB and the description of the ability.

effectively giving him a better TWF for free

Only if you take at least 5 levels in monk. And then you're. taking more than 4. Also, FoB is a full round action, while TWF can be used on a standard action. This means that you can spring attack and make 2 attacks with TWF, but not with FoB. This makes level 4 FoB worse than TWF.

If he's a striker, he'll want to hit as fast and as often as possible.

If he's a striker, he wouldn't be a monk, rogue, or any combination of the two.

plus, as it's been pointed out, you CAN use TWF AND flurry if you're so inclined.

If you want to forgo your chances of hitting anything. Levels in two 3/4th BAB classes along with a -4 attack penalty per attack does no favors for your attack bonus.

Add on any custom "make any weapon you want a Flurry weapon" feat

While we're using that argument, he shouldn't take any levels in monk at all because we can make a custom "Have him count as a monk of his rogue level for monk class features and everything" feat.

 

[Herobizkit]

No. You take a -2 penalty to flurry until level 5 where it becomes a -1 penalty. You do not lose the penalty until level 9.

Check the table for FoB and the description of the ability.

I see what you mean. What I was referring to was the BAB for a level 3 monk using Flurry, a +0/+0, which, to me, means "no penalty" to your attack roll.

If he's a striker, he wouldn't be a monk, rogue, or any combination of the two.

The OP asked for a stealth/Sneak Attack build. What else would he be?

While we're using that argument [Add on any custom "make any weapon you want a Flurry weapon" feat] , he shouldn't take any levels in monk at all because we can make a custom "Have him count as a monk of his rogue level for monk class features and everything" feat.

I meant this as a feat such as Double Steel Strike or Serpent Strike from the Eberron setting.

I understand that you're passionate about maximizing a PC, but it still boils down to what the player wants for abilities, not necessarily "the only bestest choice".

 

[Dandu]

I understand you're passionate about the one correct way to make a PC.

I'm passionate about having a correct understanding of the game. Saying "I have a Rogue4/Monk4" is fine. Saying "I get flurry of blows, which I wanted" is fine. Saying "And it is better than Two Weapon Fighting", less so.

The OP asked for a stealth/Sneak Attack build. What else would he be?

Stealth/Sneak Attack does not necessarily mean striker.

Though I guess the term may be defined differently than I understand it.

 

[Quirken]

Thank you guys for all the advice. I'm somewhat set at this point in using arcane magic, as it would greatly boost my flexibility and damage output. That said, I have a few questions.

Firstly, my DM lets the Practiced Spellcaster feat not only increase your caster level, but spells known, and max spell level as well. If you are a level one spellcaster and take it, so long as your total level is greater than 5, you have the same number of spells and power as a level 5 spellcaster.

In terms of base class for magic, I’m torn between straight-out Wizard (with variant rules), and the Sorcerer variant Blood of Siberys (Dragon 351, p79).

The two wizard options are

• “War Mage” (unfortunate name) from the Quintessential Wizard II, which grants you an extra die of damage for all spells, but any round you use an direct damage spell, you take a -2 penalty to saves to resist spells.
• The other is the “Immediate Magic” from PHB p68, which would allow me to teleport up to 10 feet as an immediate action (a number of times each day equal to my intelligence modifier), in exchange for no familiar. This seems kind of a broken ability, so my DM might not let me take it, but it seems like a number of free dodges equal to my intelligence score.

Blood of Siberys loses the ability to summon a familiar, but gains a +4 additional to CHA bonus for the purpose of receiving bonus spells/day and maximum sorcerer spell level. That would mean at first level, as far as sorcerer is concerned, I'd be treated as having +7 charisma! As far as I know, there is no equivalent for the Wizard w/ intelligence score, but if there is, that would be good to know!

Taking one level in either wizard, or the sorceror, and taking practiced spellcaster would make me eligible for the Daggerspell Mage PrC (Complete Adventurer p31), which lets you channel touch attack spells through daggers, grants a sneak attack bonus, and continues your spell progression.

I’m thinking of a character progression (by ECL 20) something along these lines:

Rogue 5 / Wizard 1 / Daggerspell Mage 5 / Mole 5
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(Mole is a PrC from Dragon #310 which grants burrow speed and sneak attack damage)[/FONT]

What do you guys think of this? It's a fair bit of multiclassing, but would make for a rather interesting character in terms of breadth, if not in straightforward power. By ECL 20, I'd have a bonus to attack of +18 (BaB +9 from 16 class levels, +2 from the Shade template, +7 from high dex).

 

[Dandu]

Immediate Spell is good. Arcane Trickster, Unseen Seer, and Abjurant Champion are better than Daggerspel Mage.