thepunisher17397
First Post
Could someone explain Stealth and passive perception to me please? (example would be great!)
Thank you....
Paul
Thank you....
Paul
Stealth
- Thread starter thepunisher17397
- Start date
webrunner
First Post
A crash course is this:
- If you are in total concealment (or are in superior cover) to at least one enemy at the end of a move action, you can make a stealth check. It's compared to passive perception of that (those) enemies, and any enemy who 'defended' against your stealth successfully still knows where you are, and you are no longer hidden to them.
- Hidden From X is a pseudo-condition that means you have combat advantage against the target, and they do not know what square you're in. Attacking, going out of cover or concealment, and such, all break Hidden.
- Note that if you're invisible, you aren't automatically hidden unless you use stealth to avoid being heard as well.
- Passive perception is your perception score +10. You're considered to be taking 10 on perception and insight checks at all times, and it functionally is similar to your defenses. It can be 'attacked' by stealth checks, for instance. Additionally, if your passive perception beats the DC of a hidden object you can see it.
DracoSuave
First Post
Don't forget as well, opponents can take a minor action to roll Perception against the Stealth you rolled.
CapnZapp
Legend
A much needed thread!
But once you've become Hidden, you can move out into mere "normal" cover or concealment and you are allowed to remain hidden there (assuming good Stealth checks of course). It's only if your Hidden-ness is broken off, you need to move back into total/superior cover/concealment to start up again.
Nevertheless, your Rogue might ask himself, "if going out of cover breaks hidden, how do I reach the monster for my sneak attack?". For this, look at powers such as Deft Attack (one of your at-Wills).
The Hidden-ness is only broken at the end of your action.
Normally your action to reach the monster is a movement action, which means that when your next action (your attack) comes along, Hidden-ness is already broken, and you don't get Sneak Attack damage. But not for Deft Attack.
While two squares aren't always enough to reach the foe in melee, it's usually sufficient to "turn the corner" and get line of sight (shooting him with a sneak-attack laced crossbow bolt, for instance).
(Other classes are limited to charging, which also combines the attack with the movement itself.)
Note that to become Hidden, you need total cover/superior concealment.
But once you've become Hidden, you can move out into mere "normal" cover or concealment and you are allowed to remain hidden there (assuming good Stealth checks of course). It's only if your Hidden-ness is broken off, you need to move back into total/superior cover/concealment to start up again.
Nevertheless, your Rogue might ask himself, "if going out of cover breaks hidden, how do I reach the monster for my sneak attack?". For this, look at powers such as Deft Attack (one of your at-Wills).
The Hidden-ness is only broken at the end of your action.
Normally your action to reach the monster is a movement action, which means that when your next action (your attack) comes along, Hidden-ness is already broken, and you don't get Sneak Attack damage. But not for Deft Attack.
While two squares aren't always enough to reach the foe in melee, it's usually sufficient to "turn the corner" and get line of sight (shooting him with a sneak-attack laced crossbow bolt, for instance).
(Other classes are limited to charging, which also combines the attack with the movement itself.)
mach1.9pants
Hero
Yeah thanks Cap'n Zapp, I am a DM and (thankfully) don't have a rogue but have felt a little uncomfortable when players or baddies go sneaky. I was doing what you said but it makes it nice to be laid out like that, makes me feel better 
thepunisher17397
First Post
Ok..this is awesome...but also the rub.
How do you calculate the perception score? Being the village idiot, I've tried looking it up in the PH as well as the Complete idiot's guide, and couldn't find anything other than the take 10....
So if I had a wisdom of 13, my passive insight is a 11 (which a rogue would roll against?)
How do you calculate the perception score? Being the village idiot, I've tried looking it up in the PH as well as the Complete idiot's guide, and couldn't find anything other than the take 10....
So if I had a wisdom of 13, my passive insight is a 11 (which a rogue would roll against?)
mach1.9pants
Hero
No he would roll against your passive perception, not insight. Perception is a skill so if you are trained in perception your score is 5+wis mod+1/2 level+other mods. Take the 5 off if you are not trained.
Your passive perception is like taking 10, add 10 to the above. It is always on, unless the DM gives a reason otherwise I guess, like you are really concentrating on something else.
Your passive perception is like taking 10, add 10 to the above. It is always on, unless the DM gives a reason otherwise I guess, like you are really concentrating on something else.
DracoSuave
First Post
Perception is a skill based on Wisdom. So:
Take half your level (rounded down)
Add in your wisdom modifier
If you're a race that gives a bonus to Perception, add that.
If you've trained in the skill Perception from your class, add 5.
Add in any other modifiers.
That is your bonus to Perception rolls.
Then to get Passive Perception, add 10 to that.
CapnZapp
Legend
Thanks for the praise - glad to be able to help. As a known rules master like DracoSuave has made a post without commentary, I can only hope my example is considered to be correct!
As a further commentary, I find 4E's skills and how DCs are based on passive checks makes for a very either-or like situation.
Either you're trained in the skill (like Stealth, or Bluff or whatever) coupled with a good ability modifier for that skill and then you do the sneaking or bluffing.
Or you're not trained and have a 10 in the ability. And then you don't do any sneaking or bluffing.
The difference can easily be 10 or more.
This makes the PCs that do sneak only fail on a 1 or 2 against reasonable monsters of their level. If two PCs do the sneaking, the risk of being detected is only 5% and 10% (or 14.5% altogether).
As the risk of detection for two PCs of the other category is 80% (assuming individual failure rates of 50% and 60%), that simply does not happen. They will solve their problems another way.
So beating a passive DC is very much an either-or scenario. Either you're trained for it, and then it's hardly a challenge; or you aren't, and the chances of failure are so overwhelming that it isn't even worth a try.
Just saying. I know I would have liked to hear this three months ago, so I didn't have to wonder if there was something wrong with the rules...
Beating passive DCs is in practice very easy (if it isn't, you don't even try).
In this I find D&D lacking, to be honest. Makes me long back to percentage-based skill games, where the "trained" character might have a 60% score while the completely untrained one has 30%.
Or at least, D&D is lacking in the way that it can be rather difficult to assemble a team with no weak links, so that skill use becomes a truly viable way to accomplish your goals. (Any party where everyone is trained in Stealth with at least a secondary Dex skill will have trouble filling out all combat roles; as will a party where everyone combines Bluff training with a good Wisdom.)
The difference to combat is stark - in D&D the only area of competence you can be sure everyone is trained for is combat. No wonder many players give up and resort to solving all their problems by bashing heads in!
As a further commentary, I find 4E's skills and how DCs are based on passive checks makes for a very either-or like situation.
Either you're trained in the skill (like Stealth, or Bluff or whatever) coupled with a good ability modifier for that skill and then you do the sneaking or bluffing.
Or you're not trained and have a 10 in the ability. And then you don't do any sneaking or bluffing.
The difference can easily be 10 or more.
This makes the PCs that do sneak only fail on a 1 or 2 against reasonable monsters of their level. If two PCs do the sneaking, the risk of being detected is only 5% and 10% (or 14.5% altogether).
As the risk of detection for two PCs of the other category is 80% (assuming individual failure rates of 50% and 60%), that simply does not happen. They will solve their problems another way.
So beating a passive DC is very much an either-or scenario. Either you're trained for it, and then it's hardly a challenge; or you aren't, and the chances of failure are so overwhelming that it isn't even worth a try.
Just saying. I know I would have liked to hear this three months ago, so I didn't have to wonder if there was something wrong with the rules...
Beating passive DCs is in practice very easy (if it isn't, you don't even try).
In this I find D&D lacking, to be honest. Makes me long back to percentage-based skill games, where the "trained" character might have a 60% score while the completely untrained one has 30%.
Or at least, D&D is lacking in the way that it can be rather difficult to assemble a team with no weak links, so that skill use becomes a truly viable way to accomplish your goals. (Any party where everyone is trained in Stealth with at least a secondary Dex skill will have trouble filling out all combat roles; as will a party where everyone combines Bluff training with a good Wisdom.)
The difference to combat is stark - in D&D the only area of competence you can be sure everyone is trained for is combat. No wonder many players give up and resort to solving all their problems by bashing heads in!
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