Steve Jackson Games d20 Magazine!

[Owen K.C. Stephens]

I had a much longer reply here written between the previous two posts, but not finished until after them. I want to leave a little of it, but sudden the rest strikes me as having the wrong tone

Steve has (apparently) claimed real role-players don't use d20. Steve is wrong. I strongly doubt he things of it as insulting, and it certainly isn't directed at anyone in particular. And, perhaps most importantly, I don't find it insulting. Personally, I'm amused. And I suspect the best way to prove he's wrong is to support articles in d20 weekly with a strong role-play flavor.

All I wanted to accomplish with my original post was to make a suggestion and put forward my thoughts on the subject, not debate the thoughts or decisions of any specific person. And certainly not to accuse anyone of unreasonable or vengeful behavior.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I totally see what you're saying. However, it isn't driving me to do anything; there are a lot of other companies doing d20 to which I can give my money. It's a buyer's market for d20 right now, with the wealth of material out there.

And it wasn't just one offhanded comment that made me respond like this; it was the whole "Munchkin d20" issue. It doesn't seem very offhanded to devote an entire product to what is now a rather hoary old chestnut - that D&D (and now d20) players are a bunch of munchkins.

Like I said, I'm sure the magazine will be of high-quality. Don't take what I'm saying as a knock against it or the people working on it.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I strongly doubt he things of it as insulting, and it certainly isn't directed at anyone in particular. And, perhaps most importantly, I don't find it insulting. Personally, I'm amused. And I suspect the best way to prove he's wrong is to support articles in d20 weekly with a strong role-play flavor.

All I wanted to accomplish with my original post was to make a suggestion and put forward my thoughts on the subject, not debate the thoughts or decisions of any specific person. And certainly not to accuse anyone of unreasonable or vengeful behavior.

I understand. Please see this from my perspective: I really know almost nothing about Steve Jackson himself. So, when someone says that they have heard him make disparaging remarks, it's difficult to tell whether or not he's being silly or being downright arrogant. There's no way to tell, especially on the internet. I appreciate what you're saying, and when I get the chance, I will check out the material. Thanks for addressing the issue with tact, respect, and grace.

 

[Owen K.C. Stephens]

I totally see what you're saying. However, it isn't driving me to do anything; there are a lot of other companies doing d20 to which I can give my money. It's a buyer's market for d20 right now, with the wealth of material out there.

Fair enough, and to a limited extent I agree.

And it wasn't just one offhanded comment that made me respond like this; it was the whole "Munchkin d20" issue. It doesn't seem very offhanded to devote an entire product to what is now a rather hoary old chestnut - that D&D (and now d20) players are a bunch of munchkins.

It does seem offhand to me. He's already done the "Munchkins Guide to Powergaming," which took a poke at all roleplayers. I took this as no more than doing the d20 version, just like there are d20 versions of Call of Cthulu, Fading Suns, Deadlands, Sovereign Stone, Star Wars... I saw it as a joke within a joke. And very much in the same vein as the Slayers Guide to Rules Lawyers, coming from Mongoose eventually.

Like I said, I'm sure the magazine will be of high-quality. Don't take what I'm saying as a knock against it or the people working on it.

I won't, and thanks for the clarification.

 

[Yuan-Ti]

So, Squirrel Nutkin makes fun of GURPS players and it is "funny" but Steve Jackson pokes fun at d20 players and it is "heretical insult"?

Seriously, Steve Jackson and the whole GURPS establishment has long had the attitude that GURPS is the last great truth--frankly, I think it is a neat original system, but doesn't suit my tastes. But there is definitely an attitude that they cop about it. On the other hand, you don't have to go far on these boards to see that a lot of d20 players cop a serious attitude about their favorite game. I know what people are talking about, but I do not believe Steve Jackson hates d20--he loves GURPS. And I think it is disingenuous for people who love d20 to stand up here and say "Steve Jackson hates d20, so we should not support any d20 product they put out"--maybe those people are the haters here, not SJ.

Btw, Warehouse23, the online mail order store for Steve Jackson Games, also sells products for other companies. While they do not sell WotC products, there are and have long been a great many d20 products available there.

 

[bolen]

What I was trying to say it was Ironic that Jackson dismissed D20 as a munchkin game and now he creates a web magazine? Kind of talking out of both sides of his mouth eh.

Let me also so I am a HUGE fan of GURPS (in fact I think it is a better system in general then D20) But it is PLAYERS who make role playing work not the system. I think with a good GM you can make the worst system in the world work. and a poor GM will make the best system into a hack fest.

I most likely will subscribe because I love SJG work and I feel sure that they will do quality work on this new magazine.

 

[bwgwl]

Whether SJG fans and D20 fans will be able to co-exist in that virtual space is another matter. I've noticed quite a bit of mutual disdain. (Which I don't understand, particularly. Personally, I'm bilingual - I speak both d20 and GURPS fluently.)

i know what you mean. i think a lot of my enthusiasm for d20 is that i perceive it as being long-sought (but never found) GURPS Cinematic. (GURPSheads will know what i mean by that.)

when i want a realistic game, GURPS is hands down the best system, IMO. but for the past few years i've been on more of an action-adventure-movie kick, and i feel d20 is much better at emulating that genre than GURPS.

each system has its own niche, and i am likewise a bit confused over the animosity i often hear between GURPS and d20 fans.

[shameless flattery]
btw Mr. Zeigler, First In has for a long time been my favorite GURPS book, and i don't even like Traveller... i've even used your world-building system for my Star Wars d20 game...
[/shameless flattery]

 

[coyote6]

First, I'll be subscribing to d20Weekly; the Forbeck and Pramas columns are the lure for me.

Next, as for the micro-hubbub --

As a player of both GURPS and D&D/d20, I have to say I'm not insulted by SJ's comments.

Even assuming the quote was accurate and not out of context (and I kind of suspect it was a joke), my reaction is (roll 1d6):

(1) Why should I care what SJ thinks of the games I play?
(2) Why should I care what SJ thinks of my playing style?
(3) Oh, yeah, that Vehicles book he approved & published is the book all "real roleplayers" need. Modern Firepower, too. Uh-huh.
(4) Ah, quit yer bellyaching, and make more money so Kovalic can do more Dork Tower & Murphy's Rules for Pyramid, Pulver & Punch can do GURPS 4e (and Supers 3e!), and Punch can write GURPS Dungeon Adventures and Hell already.
(5) Ah, more evidence of the secret SJG rule that seems to prohibit employees that work in Austin (i.e., not including freelancers or telecommuters [especially Canadians]) from exhibiting any diplomatic abilities.
(6) Looks like the Orbital Mind Control Lasers need retuning again.



In the end, you have to choose to feel insulted. I choose not to; at most, I choose mockery. Mock mock.

 

[bwgwl]

...make more money so ... Punch can write GURPS Dungeon Adventures and Hell already.

i thought i heard a rumor that William Stoddard was going to write GURPS Fantasy Campaigns. there's a book i would pick up in a heartbeat!

GURPS Hell is also on my wish list of unpublished books. at least they finally got around to doing GURPS WWII!

 

[coyote6]

i thought i heard a rumor that William Stoddard was going to write GURPS Fantasy Campaigns. there's a book i would pick up in a heartbeat!

He is, and, IIRC, has just about finished it. I believe that he's got one book to do a final draft of (GURPS Blue Planet), and then he goes back to working on Fantasy*. If I understand correctly. The bits he's mentioned so far on Pyramid sound really interesting. Can't wait for the playtest.

(Of course, with my luck, it will be at the same time I have 15 other things to do, and there'll be two other cool GURPS books in playtest, and some amazing d20 books in playtest on d20Weekly. )

*(They decided to change the title to just Fantasy; "Fantasy Campaigns" is a bit clunky, so they decided to use the more generic GURPS Fantasy).

Dungeon Adventures is a proposed book focusing on more D&D-esque sword & sorcery style campaigns. It, like Hell, is waiting for Sean Punch to miraculously have the time to write it.