Still one make-or-break issue for me...

I have a strong preference for the online 4E Compendium over any sort of traditional reference document, whether book or PDF. I'm willing to pay a subscription fee for that sort of searchable database.

Me too. I'm willing to pay for a subscription for access to that database and the other tools. But I can understand others that don't want to and would rather have a PDF file.

WotC really needs to figure out their electronic distribution for 5e. Whether that's PDF or some other format, I don't care, but they need to have something in place at launch or a lot of people that have grown accustomed to running their games with PDFs will likely skip it.

As for the OP... I don't really care about the OGL/GSL. If they have a license, great. If not, whatevs. I'll be looking at the ruleset and deciding what to do based on that alone. So far, I like what I see, but I've had to postpone my actual playtest a week so I won't know how this iteration of the rules really works until next weekend at the earliest.
 

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I would vastly prefer that Wizards release 5e under some kind of open license, but it isn't a "make or break" issue for me. It wasn't the OGL that created Pathfinder, it was abandoning the OGL-- and screwing Paizo over, whether intentionally or not-- that created Pathfinder.

Pathfinder happened because Wizards left their business associates and many of their customers feeling like they had been discarded.

The open playtest, and much of the commentary behind it, suggests that the people at Wizards have learned this lesson and taken it to heart. However, when it comes to things like open licensing and digital distribution... I think their hands are being tied by Hasbro's legal department, which simply doesn't understand the realities of the RPG market from either the developers' perspective or the consumers' perspective.

Not that Wizards would necessarily return to the OGL if they had the option. I think any rational person would agree that they profited from it tremendously, but it had its downsides as well and it could be argued that they can't make lightning strike twice.
 

Looking back at my original post, I should make it clear that the quality of D&D Next is not immaterial to me. Actually, I have a reasonable expectation that 5E will be good-- based on the playtest, my concerns with the rules are tweaks like "fighters (and just fighters) should have opportunity attacks" and "long rests should heal half-HP instead of all", and my concerns are not the basic system itself, which I very much like.

But the thing is, I like lots of games that I don't buy. I even buy lots of games I like but never end up playing much. So when I talk about being "in" or not for Next, I am talking about what I personally want from a new edition of D&D, which is, to not just be a game I like, or a game I play, but the kind of game where I am going to play the hell out of it.

During the heydey of 3.x, I bought lots of RPGs. But mostly, I played D20 stuff. I played the hell out of D20. Not because I thought it was the best game system-- I don't expect D&D to be the best game system, any more than I expect the most popular movie in a year to be the best movie, even if it is a great movie. I loved Avengers, but I doubt I will look back on it as the best film of 2012. I have loved all the versions of D&D, but system-wise, I don't expect any D&D edition in my lifetime to be as good of a flat-out ruleset as Trail of Cthulhu or Dogs in the Vineyard, but I have played a lot more of D&D (and Pathfinder, and other D&D-based stuff) than all other systems put together, mostly since the OGL was released. And there is a reason for this.

I played (and GM'd) D20 because I could do anything with it. Anything.

Just one example: During that era, I ran a D&D Planescape game with the following party: a Melnibonean noble with a demon bound to his shield (from Chaosium's d20 Elric stuff), a Numenorean ranger (from an online adaptation of LoTR, hosted on this site for a while), a Cimmerian pirate (slightly adapted from Mongoose's Conan stuff), a Deep One rogue (using stats from the WotC Call of Cthulhu d20 book), a member of the Night's Watch (from the Dragon magazine Westeros feature and some of the D20 Game of Thrones RPG from Guardians of Order), and red-robed Wizard of High Sorcery (from the licensed D&D Dragonlance 3E book).

And I did not have to make up a single rule. Other than a bit of adapting the Mongoose stuff, my only work was talking about character ideas and writing and running my adventure. This is only the case because of the OGL. I could have spent a lot more time writing rules of my own in that and other games, but that volume of content meant I could focus on other things, and when I did invent or extrapolate rules-wise, all that stuff gave me a much a stronger base to work from.

Every one of the products mentioned above drove my interest back to D&D, and while some of the products were owned by me, and some were owned by the player, you know what every one of us owned? A PHB. Over the life of 3E/3.5, I bought three of those (I bought that intro boxed set just to get the paperback PHB), because D&D was such a huge part of my gaming life. And I also had DMGs, Monster Manuals, splat books, etc. Lots of those. Most from WotC.

In contrast, I've bought three 4E books, period. I have played a lot of other games the last few years, but no one game significantly more than the others, except maybe Pathfinder. I like 4E, but I have played a lot less of it, simply because I have way fewer options with it than I did with 3E or even 2E. Business-wise, TSR made 2E too many campaign settings, but being able to have Al-Qadim, Spelljammer, Planescape, and Charlemagne's Paladins in my back pocket for the same game was awesome in a lot of ways. Relative to all that, what a 4E D&D game can be conceptually is relatively narrow. Not because the 4E designers aren't doing lots of good, imaginative work (they are), but because WotC is rationally not going to do what TSR did, which is release more product than is profitable.

Obviously, I don't expect future D&D editions to go nuts on material like 2E did. But I do want a lot of material to choose from. The OGL solved this issue for 3E. 4E had no equivalent solution, so I played it less, and WotC got less of my money. In some ways, their loss of my dollars was Paizo's gain, but I should reiterate what has been said elsewhere: the OGL didn't create Pathfinder, WotC shunning the OGL created Pathfinder.

So like I said, if there is no OGL, I am not in.
 

YThe OGL created a few problems for WotC, most notably the fact that they now have to compete with the previous edition of their own game, as adapted and published by someone else in the form of Pathfinder.
You can call that a "problem" - I call it healthy competition, and a company that is afraid of that is not long for this world.

I'll give you an example of a company that welcomes this sort of thing and manages it well, IMO - Paradox Interactive (site news and forum link).

Paradox is a PC games company. In 2009 they put out a third edition of their WW2 strategy game "Hearts of Iron 3". It had, being honest, some "teething problems" early on.

I was part of a small design team of fans that put out, in early 2010, a revamped edition of their previous version of the game, which we called "Arsenal of Democracy". This wasn't a pirate hack or anything - it was done using the original sourcecode, given to us under contract by Paradox. And it was published by - guess who? - Paradox. It was a moderate success, and Paradox themselves have worked tirelessly since to improve their own game. In an interview with the computer gaming press, the CEO of Paradox has said "I really don't care about pirates - although if things we do inconvenience them I'm happy - but I do care about the people who pay money for our products. If a method of hindering pirates means giving paying customers a worse product than they would get with a pirated version, I'm not interested in it."

Paradox's growth and profits over recent years have been very, very good indeed.

Oh, and anyone interested in medieval strategy games or the Game of Thrones series should really check out their "Crusader Kings II" (Game of Thrones mod beta - nothing to do with me - out now!)
 

I would vastly prefer that Wizards release 5e under some kind of open license, but it isn't a "make or break" issue for me. It wasn't the OGL that created Pathfinder, it was abandoning the OGL-- and screwing Paizo over, whether intentionally or not-- that created Pathfinder.


You are surely not referring to WOTC decision not to renew the magazine licenses are you? If I recall correctly they gave them plenty of notice, and let them publish beyond the contract date so they could finish up the Adventure Path that was running at the time.


RK.
 

I have a strong preference for the online 4E Compendium over any sort of traditional reference document, whether book or PDF. I'm willing to pay a subscription fee for that sort of searchable database.

If they go with the more open model as opposed to just releasing a PDF, then there will likely be sites like the d20srd or s20pfsrd. I can do rule lookups very quickly there and from a multitude of devices.
 

You are surely not referring to WOTC decision not to renew the magazine licenses are you? If I recall correctly they gave them plenty of notice, and let them publish beyond the contract date so they could finish up the Adventure Path that was running at the time.


RK.

I think he is referring to how late the GSL was revealed and how poisonous the original incarnation was.

With the 3.X/4e non-competition clause, Paizo decided it was fiscally better to maintain its recently started and growing subscription based 3.X Adventure Path "magazine" Pathfinder, rather than risk starting anew with 4e.
 

OGL is a non-issue to me

I could care less. OGL, GSL, Gentleman's agreements mean nothing if I am not going to buy much anyways. If 5E is good, I will buy it. I will not be spending what I did on 3E, my life is different, economy is different. The 3PP stuff I bought was only ever used for fluff, ie Sword and Sorcery, or was moth balled once the WotC version came out. I liked having the SRD, but more in concept than practice.

If 5E delivers on its promise of modularity and simple loose rules, I can use whatever I want with a little conversion on the fly. I have all sorts of back catalog and all the fine Pathfinder material as "3PP" for 5E.

Paizo did not succeed just because of the OGL. It gave them a leg up, sure. Paizo succeed because they create a darn fine product and maintain good relationship with their customers. The consistent product excellence is why Paizo is eating WotC's lunch. The PR for 4E helped delineate things, but Paizo has not fumbled since even hobbled by 3.x foibles. Paizo is the reason for Paizo success.
 

You can call that a "problem" - I call it healthy competition, and a company that is afraid of that is not long for this world.

I'd flip that around - any company that's not afraid of competition, healthy or otherwise, is not long for this world. Andy Grove of Intel famously talked of always being paranoid, that the moment his company became complaisent was the moment someone else would pass them by.

WOTC has no obligation to help others compete with them. If a GSL/OGL/whatever helps WOTC's bottom line, they should consider it. If it helps their competition more than it helps them, the decision is not so cut and dried.

No one disagrees that the OGL was great for fans. The question is how to draft a new OGL that's equally good for WOTC. After all, it's their decision, not ours.
 

I think he is referring to how late the GSL was revealed and how poisonous the original incarnation was.

With the 3.X/4e non-competition clause, Paizo decided it was fiscally better to maintain its recently started and growing subscription based 3.X Adventure Path "magazine" Pathfinder, rather than risk starting anew with 4e.


Yeah, their "we have it, its close, its coming, we are redoing it", that was a bit of a misstep. No argument there.

RK
 

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