Stop the 1st level Rogue

[Majere]

Then it entirely depends on why you are taking rogue levels.
If you are taking rogue levels or skill points, you should obviously take rogue first.
If you are taking it for sneak attack and eveasion and a slight boost to your reflex save to make a fighter more daingerous, You want to start with fighter first to make the most of your feats.

Its an unbalanced question, because what you are asking is :
If I want to take one level in class X (which gives the most skill points) for a skill point boost, why do I get the most skill points by taking it at level1.

And then answer to this is obvious.
Of course skill points are not the whole system, they are not even the wohle reason for taking levels in rogue.
And the higher in level you get, the less skill points do.

Majere

 

[Majere]

And sure, many non-rogue buildsd don't care. But then, by definition a build with a rogue in it does care. And this penalty for not starting out as a rogue, where skills are more than 1/2 the class, is tantamount to saying that you don't get the first bonus fighter feat unless you start a fighter at first level. Or you don't get your first rage if you don't start as a barbarian. Etc.

Sorry my bad I didnt make myself clear
The point I ment to make is that, yes there are builds with rogue levels.
Yes for these builds skill points is a consideration.
However, how much does 4/5 ranks in spot REALLY matter ?
Dont forget at 1st level you cant take more than 4 ranks in anything, so taking rogue at first level gives you 4 ranks in 8 or 9 skills. And honestly, is that really such a big deal ? Sure if gives a small initial boost, but its not game breaking.

Personally Id rather have the +1BAB at first level to make good use of my fighting feats than 4ranks in 7/8 skills of which a fighting character might reasonably ever use 3/4 (Spot,listen.. intimidate ?)
And these skills are never going to increase much because of cross class skill limits and the low skill points of fighting classes.

The main reasonsfor multiclassing fighter/rogue are (roughly in order):
1) Sneak attack
2) Evasion
3) Boost to reflex save
4) Few ranks in tumble spot,search etc
5) Skill points to meet PRC skill requirements.

Even in a very skill biased game having 4 ranks in a skill isnt much, you are going to fail 50% of the time at first level and it will get worse as your level increases because you cant keep increaseing all your skills at the same rate.

Majere

 

[ARandomGod]

Sorry my bad I didnt make myself clear
The point I ment to make is that, yes there are builds with rogue levels.
Yes for these builds skill points is a consideration.
However, how much does 4/5 ranks in spot REALLY matter ?
Dont forget at 1st level you cant take more than 4 ranks in anything, so taking rogue at first level gives you 4 ranks in 8 or 9 skills. And honestly, is that really such a big deal ? Sure if gives a small initial boost, but its not game breaking.

Personally Id rather have the +1BAB at first level to make good use of my fighting feats than 4ranks in 7/8 skills of which a fighting character might reasonably ever use 3/4 (Spot,listen.. intimidate ?)
And these skills are never going to increase much because of cross class skill limits and the low skill points of fighting classes.

The main reasonsfor multiclassing fighter/rogue are (roughly in order):
1) Sneak attack
2) Evasion
3) Boost to reflex save
4) Few ranks in tumble spot,search etc
5) Skill points to meet PRC skill requirements.

Even in a very skill biased game having 4 ranks in a skill isnt much, you are going to fail 50% of the time at first level and it will get worse as your level increases because you cant keep increaseing all your skills at the same rate.

Majere

Interestingly enough, you are the only person I've ever heard express that opinion. Interesting to me, anyhow... I do like to hear alternate opinions.
Sure, people may not be taking the rogue level for the skills... but if/when they do, they generally wish that they had taken it first. I've never heard anyone else espouse that it would be better to take it later.

Of course, the question... "How much does 4 skill points really mean" can be equally said as "how much does one BAB really mean." Even moreso for the BAB, because you get full BAB for your level no matter when you take it. You only get "full initial" skill points at first level.

Four points in spot may not mean much. But four points in 8+ skills does. Or 6+, as you already get four in 2+ for fighter. And four points may not mean much... unless you plan on building those four up later, then they mean a lot.

I don't know... I've always wanted/needed *every* skill point. Four points extra in spot is awesome, as far as I'm concerned. That's 20% greater chance of spotting something. Improving your skill by 20% in six skills is a pretty important thing to many people.

And, of course:
4) Few ranks in tumble spot,search etc
5) Skill points to meet PRC skill requirements.
Both of those are so very much better satisfied by taking it at level one.

Well, number five can sometimes be better if you take rogue later. That is, if you're only taking one level. You can put ALL your skill points in one skill if you take rogue late enough in levels. But still, if you've bought into rogue in the first place (paid the one BAB less to get it), you're almost a fool for not taking at least that second level for evasion. Almost. There are some reasons not to. And then there are some for going all the way up to level four rogue, at five you'd have to buy in with another BAB...

But, in general, I'd bet that more people take one level of rogue for initial skill points than they do for one die of sneak attack. Or saves... If they wanted saves, they'd spend that BAB to buy into monk instead.

 

[Henry]

The thing is, I don't see it as unbalancing itself. As Majere says, 4 ranks in a skill is useful, but not unbalancing in any way over the other classes; if anything, it promotes the use of skills over combat.

You are correct that 4 extra plusses in Spot or Listen is useful, but don't forget that what you use it against scales as well. You see it as "20% better"; however, that's assuming the DC for Spot will always be at or under 20. It's opposed by Hide, and the higher level your opponents, the harder that Spot will be. A level 8 rogue with decent DEX and skill focus will have a hide in the 30's, meaning that 4 extra ranks in Spot are useful, but still won't put that DC any closer without other aid. Same thing with Search and traps; CR 10 magical traps are Search DC 30 and up!

 

[ARandomGod]

The thing is, I don't see it as unbalancing itself. As Majere says, 4 ranks in a skill is useful, but not unbalancing in any way over the other classes; if anything, it promotes the use of skills over combat.

Well, perhaps I'm not understanding your point there. Of course I don't think it's unbalancing... If I did, I'd wonder why characters got the bonus skills in the first place, or I'd definitely not propose a rule to make it so that they can get them even if they only multiclass later. There's nothing *wrong* with having rogue at level one... All I was saying is that flavorwise it's a little wrong that you've hurt yourself so badly if you took fighter first in a fighter rogue build.

You are correct that 4 extra plusses in Spot or Listen is useful, but don't forget that what you use it against scales as well. You see it as "20% better"; however, that's assuming the DC for Spot will always be at or under 20. It's opposed by Hide, and the higher level your opponents, the harder that Spot will be. A level 8 rogue with decent DEX and skill focus will have a hide in the 30's, meaning that 4 extra ranks in Spot are useful, but still won't put that DC any closer without other aid. Same thing with Search and traps; CR 10 magical traps are Search DC 30 and up!

Sure. But it's still nice. And if you DO plan on bringing up those skills too, say you only have a few fighter levels (say two...) and mostly rogue/ranger for your other levels, well...
You've messed up if you started with fighter. Messed up pretty badly. Sure, you might have more HP, but you might not... that's somewhat random. But you'll be a skill cripple.


Dipping into rogue for a level or two? Not overpowered. Or, if so, so is all multiclassing. Skill points are a main defining point of being a rogue.

Unless I'm mistaken, the original intent of this thread (and at any rate, my point) is that if you're going to multiclass something with rogue, you should in nearly every case, take rogue at first level.

I think that hampers role play. Sometimes you, for simple roleplay and story reasons, want to take rogue later. Under RAW you will be punished for this. Hence my house rule.

 

[Majere]

Depending on when you take your rogue levels, the following feats are gained a level later:
Weapon specialisation,
Greater Weapon focus
Greater weapon specialisation
Improved critical.

It might seem a minor point, but not havng improved critical when the bad guy does can really suck

Ultimately, if you want alot of skills to a low level (4 ranks) It makes sense to take rogue first.
If you one one or two skills to a high level (7/8 ranks) to meet a PRC requirement it makes sense to take the rogue levels later on, so you can put the ranks in all at once. Taking rogue at level one may mean you need to take more rogue levels to meet a PrC then you would if you took the rogue level later and put all the skill points into just the required skills. More Rogue levels means less fighter feats, gaining important fighter feats like those listed above later.

It can be a tough choice depending on how much you value your feats.

Majere