Stopping take 20 Searching.

[Wendigo]

Holy ridiculously unecessary calculations Batman!!

Unnecessary if players are using take-20 judiciously. Don’t impose it then. But if the PCs are using T20 to substitute for roleplaying well . . .

Other options if that mechanic is too much. Allow 2 take-20's per session. Only a take-20 that yields nothing "costs". Or make a take-20 use an action point. Or . . .

The idea is to reflect that fact that real people would not, unless there was good reason, meticulously strip every room, inspect every wall, floor and ceiling. But the key is good reason. In a trap-filled environment or treasure hiding monsters – I’d let them do exactly that. And I would balance that with a clear, in-game reason why the villains were putting up with all the traps. After all, the PCs only deal with them once – the villains and flunkeys have to work around them every trip to the washroom. (“I loose more slaves that way.”) Likewise with treasure hiding. Intelligent villains have a good reason to hide treasure, but not every treasure and not every hiding spot makes sense. Mostly they are hiding items to keep them from being stolen by fellow denizens. A major villain’s personal quarters – I’d expect and accept a take 20. But the kitchen – why would a villain hide something were the cook/slaves might find it? Just to screw with the heads of some wandering invader who has systematically slaughtered everyone in the whole place? Probably not his/her/its first priority. So if I do the work of placing treasure in a way appropriate to the villain’s circumstances, then I expect the PCs actions to reflect their characters’ view, not the metagaming players’ maximum advantage. If the players don’t consider search fatigue, then I’ll introduce some rule that creates game consequences for that fatigue.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So if I do the work of placing treasure in a way appropriate to the villain’s circumstances, then I expect the PCs actions to reflect their characters’ view, not the metagaming players’ maximum advantage.

Your idea probably works so long as the above holds true in absolutely every case.

The moment the villain's cook decides to get smart, and hide a gem inside the false bottom of the flour drawer, however, you're back to square 1. "Sorry, PCs, you missed another treasure because, while you went over the vault with a fine-toothed comb, the stableboy was embezzling gold and potions and hiding them under the hay stack."

 

[Wendigo]

Your idea probably works so long as the above holds true in absolutely every case.

The moment the villain's cook decides to get smart, and hide a gem inside the false bottom of the flour drawer, however, you're back to square 1. "Sorry, PCs, you missed another treasure because, while you went over the vault with a fine-toothed comb, the stableboy was embezzling gold and potions and hiding them under the hay stack."

I agree. The DM has to play fair. If the stableboy was embezzling, how was he getting away with it? Counterfeit coins? (PC's notice – or mabye get caught trying to spend some.) Switching out potions for water (PC’s might notice.) Did he leave clues? (Straw in the vault? Roughspun clothing on the bars of the window to the vault?) Is the villain actively searching for a thief? (PCs find signs of searching in their own searches.) Did he get caught? (PCs will notice the tortured body of the stableboy.) Was he more than just a stable boy. (PCs notice that the one of the stablehands backstabs and then gets away.) Where did he make / acquire these counterfeit coins? (PCs find a small crucible and signs of fire in a dusty corner of the otherwise abandon tower.) Given one or more clues and a reasonable premise, I’d again expect and accept a “we take the stable apart, straw by straw” response. Its what a reasonable person might do.

Interestingly enough, the PCs often reach the wrong conclusion and search the wrong areas first. Again, I wouldn't penalize that kind of play - they are behaving in character.

 

[Gruns]

Hmm...

I started this thread a few days ago, and just finished reading the replies.
My problem has nothing to do with the time (real life time) it takes to say "We take 20 Searching the room". The problem is that taking 20 makes traps, secret doors, hidden treasure/keys/clues etc all completely pointless. There's no reason to have a secret door if it's just going to discovered 100% of the time. (Or NOT discovered 100% of the time, which makes it just as pointless.) I like the PCs to find stuff, especially clues, but not if it requires no effort with very little risk.
As for the suggestions given, none really work. It doesn't matter if the PCs run into the ambush now, or 2-3 minutes from now. Basically, unless the PCs stealthed their way into and out of every room, the NPCs will know they're there. "Poisonous floors" would likely work, but just isn't very realistic or feasible.
Time just isn't as relevant as I'd like it to be. (No, you aren't going to starve to death by spending an extra 3 hours in a dungeon.) Since I'm running out of events/dilemmas that make time matter, I was looking more for more (different) situations to apply to my adventures.
-Need to find antidote for victim dying in town.
-BBEG wakes up in 45 minutes.
-Holocaustic event of tremendous and certain doom happens precisely at midnight.
-Rival NPC party racing to get there first.
-...more?

No need to try and Rule 0 or change/fix the "Take 20" rule. (It's here. It's queer. Get used to it.) Just looking for MORE MORE MORE ways to make time matter.
Thanks!
Gruns

 

[FireLance]

I personally like the fact that PCs can take 20 to search, pick locks, etc. This is because I think that players have most fun playing when they get to make meaningful decisions, and not when they have to make pointless rolls.

If there is a secret door that the characters cannot find, or a locked door that the characters cannot get through, whatever I've placed behind there is wasted. If a trap is simply sprung on the PCs, they take damage and that's it. I find it becomes more interesting if the PCs are aware of the trap and must decide whether to risk disarming it, evading it, or finding some other way around. If I want to "channel" the PCs, i.e. the PCs have to defeat creature A before they can go through door B, I can always make door B impossible to find or unlock, and creature A has a clue to its location in its journal or a key to the lock.

If you do want some randomness to dictate whether the PCs find the things that are hidden, have a look at the illusory wall spell. You can alter it to a more generalized hiding spell (perhaps of lower level) that increases the Search DC to find an object by 10, unless the searcher succeeds at a successful Will save.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Maybe one reason my players don't do this monster searching is because they know that at the end of the day their characters' wealth will reflect basically the reccomended wealth given in the DMG. They feel less inclined to squeeze and horde every penny they can because in the end they'll have what I want them to have. That allows them to act more in character without feeling penalized for not searching every inch of a dungeon for loot, which also might be considered meta-gaming but in my mind not a bad thing.

As for an always-never thing... they rarely take 20 on search checks, even when faced with possible traps and secret doors unless they have good reason to believe that it is there. The party rogue will usually check twice for traps on doors and such, then assume everything is good to go (even if the player knows he just rolled two ones in a row). Time is usually important in my games, however, and the PCs are often the impatient types.

Common time-important events I have used are:
-A door that they magically bypassed will lock again in X time. They must get in and out within that timeframe.
-Captives have been captured by gnolls to work the mines. But gnolls are notorious for eating their slaves... (I <heart3 gnolls)
-The duration on a spell protecting the villiage is going to wear off soon, and the PCs need to stop the BBEG before it runs out.
-A Devil is trying to suck this region into the Abyss! Hurry before all Hell breaks lose! (litterally)
-Two things must happen within a certain time frame. (Alternately they can get an NPC adventuring party to help them and hope they're competent enough. I'm using this one soon.)

 

[Klaus]

I started this thread a few days ago, and just finished reading the replies.
My problem has nothing to do with the time (real life time) it takes to say "We take 20 Searching the room". The problem is that taking 20 makes traps, secret doors, hidden treasure/keys/clues etc all completely pointless. There's no reason to have a secret door if it's just going to discovered 100% of the time. (Or NOT discovered 100% of the time, which makes it just as pointless.) I like the PCs to find stuff, especially clues, but not if it requires no effort with very little risk.
As for the suggestions given, none really work. It doesn't matter if the PCs run into the ambush now, or 2-3 minutes from now. Basically, unless the PCs stealthed their way into and out of every room, the NPCs will know they're there. "Poisonous floors" would likely work, but just isn't very realistic or feasible.
Time just isn't as relevant as I'd like it to be. (No, you aren't going to starve to death by spending an extra 3 hours in a dungeon.) Since I'm running out of events/dilemmas that make time matter, I was looking more for more (different) situations to apply to my adventures.
-Need to find antidote for victim dying in town.
-BBEG wakes up in 45 minutes.
-Holocaustic event of tremendous and certain doom happens precisely at midnight.
-Rival NPC party racing to get there first.
-...more?

No need to try and Rule 0 or change/fix the "Take 20" rule. (It's here. It's queer. Get used to it.) Just looking for MORE MORE MORE ways to make time matter.
Thanks!
Gruns

In one of the adventures in Fiery Dragon's double-book Nature's Fury, the PCs must beat another group of adventurers into a tower that is built on an iceberg... that is melting!

In the double-adventure To Stand On Hallowed Ground, the two adventures have a deadline of sorts: in "The Ghost Machine", the title-contraption must be put out before its effects reach civilization (which will take only a few hours) and create hundreds of undead. In "Swords Against Deception", if the PCs don't stop a ritual on time, the BBEG will regain his full might (as in 20th level, as opposed to 10th-ish).

In The Silver Summoning, the PCs must race against the clock to retrieve an antidote for the poison that is killing the couple that stands as the best chance of uniting elves and humans. Aftwerwards, they must race and save a dwarven Kingdom Under The Mountain against an invading horde of orcs. And in the middle of it all, they must race through a dungeon as part of an overland chase after the assassins that poisoned the couple, so every minute counts.

 

[Storm Raven]

I started this thread a few days ago, and just finished reading the replies.
My problem has nothing to do with the time (real life time) it takes to say "We take 20 Searching the room". The problem is that taking 20 makes traps, secret doors, hidden treasure/keys/clues etc all completely pointless. There's no reason to have a secret door if it's just going to discovered 100% of the time. (Or NOT discovered 100% of the time, which makes it just as pointless.) I like the PCs to find stuff, especially clues, but not if it requires no effort with very little risk.

But how is this a problem with the Take 20 rule? If the Take 20 rule wasn't in place, the players could just Search the area fifty times to make sure they didn't miss anything, and then you have to make fifty die rolls for each square searched. I don't see how that's much better.

 

[painandgreed]

Another possible solution is to introduce Complex Actions from the Unerthed Arcana book. these are effectivly actions that require more than one success to be completed. Take 20 actions can't be taken on these because three or more failures and it cannot be attempted again. I can see some searches being complex actions, especially in cases where furniture and items might have to be moved around inorder to complete. Finding the proper book on a bookshelf might not be a compelx action but pulling all the books off the shelf to move the bookcase so you can fidn the secret door behind it might be.

 

[Arnwyn]

If the Take 20 rule wasn't in place, the players could just Search the area fifty times to make sure they didn't miss anything, and then you have to make fifty die rolls for each square searched. I don't see how that's much better.

They could... but would they? I think that's the difference. Having them roll each and every check introduces the monotony of the characters' searching to the players of these characters.

(Aside/disclaimer: I, personally, am fine with the Take 20 rule.)