Stopping take 20 Searching.

[mark_j]

Oh I see. So if the players aren't playing the way you want them to, break the rules? Again, why is it metagaming? If they are in a dungeon and they suspect secret doors, why wouldn't they search for them? It would be stupid of them if they didn't.

LOL, the DM can't break the rules! All the rules are at the DM's option! Searching every room isn't the problem, its painstakingly and unrealistcly combing every room that is the problem. The characters "take 20" searching has become an excessive epidemic in his game. Why can't he take action? The game is about having fun, not honoring the game mechanics. He's not having fun when his characters "take 20" search every toom. I was suggesting he do something about it because he is the Dungeon Master. How he fixes it is his option, I was just suggesting a quick and dirty solution.

It doesn't matter whether you approve or not, it is his game. You DM with your own style, and more power to you. If it is fun, it is good. Anything that leads to player and DM enjoyment is a plus in my book.

Edit: I'm sorry, I assumed in my post that you were a DM with your own campaign as well. If you are not, and are speaking from a player's perspective, then I honor that perspective. Taking "power" from the players hands should not be taken lightly. I do not take it lightly either, despite my comments.

 

[drothgery]

I'd have to say that's a "what's the problem?" scenario myself; it's going to be slow, and will give the BBEG of the place plenty of time to set up a good ambush. Now, making an exhaustive search of a manor/dungeon/whatever after killing the BBEG and any minions that were in your (in order to take all of their stuff) is pretty much standard practice.

 

[Henry]

Count me as "not a problem." If you don't like it, then it's yours to change, but I like it because it's not plausible that a crew of 4 people could search a small room wiith a fine-toothed comb and NOT find what they're looking for.

What are the monsters doing in that two minutes? What could YOU do to prepare in two full minutes if you knew someone was breaking into your house? If they've been careful not to spread alerts, then good for the party - that's sensible play, and they deserve some extra time to search. If not, just a mere 16 minutes to search a 20 x 20 room that's 10 feet high top to bottom after alerting monsters to their presence will be more than enough time for EVERY other monster in the habitat to be put on alert and ready maximum defenses.

In the matter of search being an "all or nothing" position: I find that plausible, too. In real life, I've had the experience of searching my house top to bottom for my keys, only to have my wife point them out to me seconds after searching. If that's not "aid another" to give me the extra two points I needed to find them, I don't know what is.

Another idea: extend the search time for a 5-foot square to 1 full minute. This makes the take 20 take 20 minutes for a 5-foot square, and FAR less likely to while away hours searching in a dungeon while the enemy prepares.

 

[Bigwilly]

One roll per room per player unless they say otherwise

I make them roll, as this allows the low wisdom / no search skill ftr to get lucky and find the magical 'Doohickey of Doom' while the high wis elf rogue with skill points out the wazoo gets distracted by a particulary ugly painting or a paper cut.

So IMC, every player that searches a room gets to make a single search roll. If they roll good they find one hidden item (assuming there is something to find). If they roll low, too bad - they just took a quick look around and didn't see anything of interest.

If a particular player thinks there is something worth finding, I will let him/her/it reroll until they get bored and give up - or the rest of the party gets bored and makes them move on.

Bigwilly

 

[maddman75]

Here's how I get around searches. I hate hate hate hearing 'I search this. I search that. Now I search under this and over that'. So I make a deal with my players. They don't tell me that they search every last crevice. In exchange, the character up front gets to roll a search check automatically for any traps or secret doors.

If they said they wanted to take 20 to search every 5' of space, I'd remind they that they are heros not archaologists and get on with the game.

Also consider that they may have been trained into this behaviour by you or a previous DM. An obvious solution if you don't want them wasting game time searching for stuff, don't hide things.

 

[Ravellion]

Another idea: extend the search time for a 5-foot square to 1 full minute. This makes the take 20 take 20 minutes for a 5-foot square, and FAR less likely to while away hours searching in a dungeon while the enemy prepares.

The option above is definitely a very elegant solution to the perceived problem. Taking that long in game world time will most likely make it impossible to thoroughly search anything unless you've got all the time in the world.

My opinion is to leave well enough alone. If your players want to have a good look, let them. I would be incredibly frustrated if they didn't and left all my BBEG's journals and maps and otehr clues to the adventure because they felt it was wrong to look for them somehow.

Rav

 

[GlassJaw]

I assumed in my post that you were a DM with your own campaign as well.

Correct assumption. And like I said, I have no problem with it.

My point was that suddenly saying the players can't 20 anymore is the LAMEST solution possible. Hiding behind "the DM is always right" wall is weak IMO. Invoke rule 0 as a last resort. There are plenty of creative ways to prevent or at least hinder the player's ability to take 20 searching everything.

But if you are going to change a rule substantially, best do it before or after a session, not during. If you just hit the players with it while they are searching smacks of DM frustration. Discuss with the players out of game and try to come up with a solution.

It doesn't matter whether you approve or not, it is his game.

Well you could pretty much state that in every thread in here. This is a place for voicing opinions, as varied as they may be.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

its painstakingly and unrealistcly combing every room that is the problem.

Yes, it's horribly unrealistic for someone whose life depends on them finding the nigh-invisible tripwire near the door to do their utmost to find it.

Anyone who is saying that taking 20 is "unrealistic" is, at best, a fool.

 

[mark_j]

Correct assumption. And like I said, I have no problem with it. My point was that suddenly saying the players can't 20 anymore is the LAMEST solution possible. Hiding behind "the DM is always right" wall is weak IMO. Invoke rule 0 as a last resort. There are plenty of creative ways to prevent or at least hinder the player's ability to take 20 searching everything. But if you are going to change a rule substantially, best do it before or after a session, not during. If you just hit the players with it while they are searching smacks of DM frustration. Discuss with the players out of game and try to come up with a solution.

I agree with your points. Well said. I am quite lame, it appears, despite DMing for 22 years I have much to learn. As do we all.

In older versions of this fine game, "rule 0" was the most important and cherished rule, not an object of scorn. I need to adapt, and have not.

That said, my solution of dumping "take 20" checks was not very elegant or imaginative. However, I was just driving home the point that he has control over his game, regardless of what the rulebooks say. Without the creative input of the DM, the players have nothing to play. If the DM is not enjoying an aspect of the ruleset, he has the power to change it.

On the other side of the same coin, if players are not having fun, then they will quit and the DM has no one to DM for. Regardless of my high lameness quotient, no one has every left any of my groups due to anything but moving out of town. Back to my point, fun=good, if rules get in the way of the fun, they are eliminated.

Your points are valid and well taken. Thanks for the debate.

-Mark

 

[Henry]

Yes, it's horribly unrealistic for someone whose life depends on them finding the nigh-invisible tripwire near the door to do their utmost to find it.

Anyone who is saying that taking 20 is "unrealistic" is, at best, a fool.

Let's please not be so harsh towards one another. I agree that it's not plausible, to me, but I'm not calling anyone a fool over it.