Str Pal vs Chr Pal

[Shin Okada]

Yep. Strength-din is more striker-like. Having L1 & L5 dailies which do 4W damages, and having a striker At-Will (Holy Strike), it is often even much striker than some strikers such as barbarian. And Str/Wis build work very well with either Avenger or Fighter multiclass feats.

For defender roll, one of the strength of .... strength-din is .... their high strength

It gives them better Athletics skill, which means they can move into an appropriate position more easily than Charisma-dins do. Even how one's defending ability is strong, it is meaningless if they can't be in the right position. You do use Athletics when you escape from grab, too.

Also, higher Fort defense is often more important for a defender. Many of the kinetic attacks which involves forced movement/knock down target Fort.

In overall, while they are much weaker in marking & punishing abilities, Strength-Dins hit harder and be mobile comparing to Charisma-Dins. That is not a bad trade-off, IMHO.

 

[Zaran]

I'm glad that in 4e, not all warriors are musclebound. But Woody Allen and Pee-Wee Herman paladins are taking it a bit far. Yet, that's a norm for a Cha paladin.

I have been disappointed that Essentials has been pretty much going back to Str for all melee attacks. The warpriest is a good example of this. There are so many classes based around strength that I wish they made the eCleric wisdom based. The ePaladin is fine but I want to see the cPaladin revisited.

 

[Aegeri]

The Warpriest is Wisdom based, all its attacks are Wisdom vs. whatever. It almost entirely replaces the strength cleric because it can take most of the decent cleric powers that are wisdom based while still fighting effectively in melee without much effort required. It's a really solid build actually.

 

[Zaran]

Yeah, I must have flaked out there. Guess my mind was telling that since they were melee based that they were Strength. Sorry

 

[DracoSuave]

The Warpriest is Wisdom based, all its attacks are Wisdom vs. whatever. It almost entirely replaces the strength cleric because it can take most of the decent cleric powers that are wisdom based while still fighting effectively in melee without much effort required. It's a really solid build actually.

The storm warpriest's powers are inferior to Righteous Brand, ergo, no.

 

[DoctorNick]

I'm glad that in 4e, not all warriors are musclebound. But Woody Allen and Pee-Wee Herman paladins are taking it a bit far. Yet, that's a norm for a Cha paladin.

10 is average, isn't it? I'm not sure I would call average (quasi-medieval) strength "Pee-Wee Herman".

And if you don't want your non str paladin to be weak (the only place this is going to come up is in Athletics or Str attribute checks), then don't. You don't have to have all your NADS be optimized all the time. The game doesn't break if you decide to put a 12 in str.

 

[Aegeri]

The storm warpriest's powers are inferior to Righteous Brand, ergo, no.

You've not seen how terrible the Strength Cleric performs in Epic Tier obviously - I mean genuinely terrible. Especially post-errata on Clerics powers like Righteous Brand, which was severely nerfed and is merely "good" and not "Automatic pick". I mean I played with a strength cleric in my campaign from level 7-30 and the fact is that the strength powers - except righteous brand - are universally terrible. The clerics true power is in many of their amazing wisdom based powers, which get stronger and stronger as you level up like Astral Storm - arguably one of the best area burst powers in the entire game.

The Warpriest by the very virtue of the fact it is purely wisdom based is a long way ahead of the strength cleric - even without Righteous Brand. You could argue being even strength/wisdom, but that's rather pointless and it's far better to be con/wisdom. More hit points is essentials for leaders in a game where monsters can and almost certainly will "snipe" you as soon as possible if they get the chance (and have the damage to do so). The best thing I will concede about the strength cleric is easy access to plate armor.

The nerfs to clerics in the errata last year hit the strength cleric extremely hard. There was a massive drop off in performance - so much the party began to really struggle in many battles. All the things the cleric actually did that were effective could be done by a wisdom cleric and far far better.

 

[DracoSuave]

2 to 3 to 4 extra hitpoints is not a gamechanger. Constitution as a survivability stat does not scale as you gain levels. 4 hitpoints at level 1 is a minor difference. At level 11, it's negligible. At level 30?

+3 to attack is better than +10 to damage, which is all a storm warpriest can muster.

Astral Storm is level 29--tho at least you've presented an option Warpriests can actually take.

Tho, Strike of Judgement, Ivory Rampart, Divine Phalanx are all pretty decent Strength-Cleric powers. Recovery Strike is workable, and Righteous Brand is nerfed to +3 to attack rolls. +3 is not a small bonus.

The Storm warpriest, which is supposed to be the offensive based one, has Blessing of Wrath, which isn't bad, and Storm Hammer... which isn't terrible but doesn't actually do any Leadering.

And all those really cool Wisdom based encounter powers? They're great for wisdom clerics. Warpriests get to look at them on the sidelines. ONLY dailies become options for them.

 

[Aegeri]

2 to 3 to 4 extra hitpoints is not a gamechanger.

Obviously you're not aware that a higher con gives you more surges, which each surge being another 60+ HP by epic per surge.

Now that is a gamechanger in a game where:

1) Balors are doing 74+3d12 on a 15-20 crit range.
2) Artillery is sniping you out with +7 to ranged attacks and incredibly solid damage
3) Autodamage powers and auras are more common
4) The party striker can be pseudo-dominated and turn his highest level encounter power on the Cleric. Ever seen a cleric take hurricane of blades from his Barbarian ally? It isn't pretty.

So I don't think you quite get why con is now extremely important: It's not just the HP. It's the surges. Noting that leaders that let a party spread surges around easily, like the Artificer are amazing in a post MM3 world.

Constitution as a survivability stat does not scale as you gain levels.

Except for the whole healing surge part, where more healing surges is immensely important given the damage monsters do.

At level 11, it's negligible. At level 30?

Extra surges is far more than a few HP difference. Considering every game I was routinely draining all the surges of the fighter and cleric, it is very important.

+3 to attack

vs. AC. Needing to be in melee to attack with RB and is conditional on hitting. While the Warpriests damage bonus is an effect, so always works.

Astral Storm is level 29--tho at least you've presented an option Warpriests can actually take.

There are numerous options for Warpriests to take. Wisdom powers throughout the cleric tree are fantastic, while strength powers middle behind in many cases. Just go look at any CharOp assessment of high level Cleric Powers to see for yourself. Most of the advice is to just take certain Wisdom powers anyway.

Strike of Judgement

Is a 7th level power. It's not great by epic tier standards.

Ivory Rampart

Is a solid 15th level power and it's okay for epic for a strength cleric. Partly because their actual epic power options are terrible. This is not a good endorsement of the strength cleric.

In terms of defensive though, Sacred Armistice is far better. The enemy plain cannot attack (save ends) and for the rest of the encounter every one of your healing words gives a +5 power bonus to all defenses.

Brilliant Censure is also a much better power, because the effect is again encounter length and blind is a strong condition on many monsters. The extra radiant damage is just amazing as well, considering how much synergy in the rules there is when you're dealing with radiant.

Divine Phalanx are all pretty decent Strength-Cleric powers.

I love that power, perfect set up for area or burst powers like Beheading Blade and for the Astral Krakens power to force a target to use their highest level power against an ally. The Strength Cleric in my campaign almost killed the entire party twice with that power. He did kill himself with that power when a monster got the Barbarian (who teleported adjacent) to hurricane of blades him.

It's terrible because when limited powers (bursts and blasts) are doing absolutely ridiculous amounts of damage it becomes a huge liability if used at the wrong time.

I know from experience.

Recovery Strike is workable

With the nerfs to healers lore and surgeless healing Recovery Strike is a terrible power. If you think a conditional power that requires you to hit for a paltry amount of HP regained if an ally happens to hit them is good, then I don't really know what to tell you

and Righteous Brand is nerfed to +3 to attack rolls. +3 is not a small bonus.

That requires you to hit and be in melee, where many brutes will now beat you absolutely senseless in the process. I agree it was great when it was just a pure stat mod, but now it's nowhere near as effective because of the condition on hitting vs. AC.

And all those really cool Wisdom based encounter powers? They're great for wisdom clerics. Warpriests get to look at them on the sidelines. ONLY dailies become options for them.

And those are among the absolutely best powers that clerics have. Clerics like Wizards can change an encounter with a single daily. Well okay, Strength Cleric powers usually can't but the best Wisdom based powers almost certainly can. There is a reason that so many of the powers the strength cleric took towards the upper paragon/epic tiers were all wisdom powers.

In fact he did far more with Wisdom powers than he ever did with any of the powers actually designed for a Cleric with strength.

That honestly tells you everything you need to know about the strength cleric right there.

 

[DracoSuave]

Dude, if you're complaining that 'being in melee' is a problem with the Strength Cleric... isn't that a problem with the Warpriest as well?

Or is the warpriest expected to fire off a daily and spend the rest of the fight with his thumb up his butt? Warpriest powers are melee powers too.

If that's your plan, then doesn't that make the warpriest just a terrible Laser or Astral Seal cleric?