D&D 4E STR 'to-hit' bonus departing in 4e?

[Bagpuss]

Well, I suppose the realism argument could go on forever... so that aside, wouldn't it be more fun if melee combat was affected by 2 angles rather than one?

But making to hit DEX, you then make DEX overly strong since it is to hit for both ranged and melee and improves your defence against both ranged and melee. I personally think they have the balance about right as it is. Especially when you look at the feats in SW-SAGA that are melee based but require DEX 13 or higher.

 

[Najo]

I don't really agree about the realism aspect, though the 'punch through AC' agrument makes sense, but I think the game has evolved past that, by making combat more 'realistic' and varied.
A'koss, are you implying a wizard will roll attacks with a magic missile using his INT bonus? I understand the special abilities tying to relavant scores, but I'm not sure attack rolls will.

Personally, I'd like to see STR just augment damage. Let DEX modify accuracy.

I think this is the case, that wizards will make attack rolls for their spells with a + to hit from INT modifiers. Clerics will use WIS, etc.

 

[Darkness]

Somewhere in between would be what some other games do: You hit with Dex, but weapons have Str prerequisites and if you don't meet them you suffer a penalty. Kinda like lacking proficiency in D&D. (Of course, you could suffer both penalties.)

 

[Pinotage]

How does a strong person hit an unarmored monk more often?

I've always envisaged it as follows. You have guy with 10 Str and 18 Dex and one with 18 Str and 10 Dex. The high Dex guy is kind of small and not terribly intimidating, so the unarmored monk looks at him and is prepared to fight since the guy is smaller and skinnier and unlikely to do much damage. However, the high Str guy is intimidating so in an attempt of self-preservance, you naturally shy away, making it easier for him to hit. Just think how you would respond in a battle against these two guys - I'd shy away from the high Str guy and hence he'd hit me easier. Plus, your parries are less effective against high Strength, and it gets through armor.

Of course, all D&D characters are crazy from a realism perspective.

Pinotage

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Well, I suppose the realism argument could go on forever... so that aside, wouldn't it be more fun if melle combat was affected by 2 angles rather than one? Its like ranged combat in 3e, in order to be the best (damage and accurate) you need 2 good stats. I'd like to see melee work the same way, so the melee fighters can be more varied and the ole' 'half-orc for +2 STR' won't be so pervasive. I know, it's probably the dragonborn this edition, but you get my point.

Is choosing a Half-Orc / Dragonborn for the +2 Str bonus when creating a Fighter / Barbarian / Whatever any worse than choosing an Elf or Halfling when creating a Rogue for the +2 Dex bonus?

The bonuses exist to re-enforce desirable archtypes, and I expect that players will still be choosing a race for the apparent bonus to their preferred class.

I will admit, however, that the +2 to Str has a much greater impact for the earlier levels than the other racial stat bonuses, given that Damage is the only stat that can be magnified by weapon choice. But even with that, once you start to get past level 6, the extra +1 to hit and damage tends to wash out.

Getting back to the topic at hand, I am not a fan of the "Dex to hit, Str to Damage" logic. Speed / agility is important in a fight, but Strength is simply much more important. If you watch enough UFC fights, especially in Spike TV's Ultimate Fighter series, you will see many fighters who are not as skilled as their opponents win decision matches simply because they are able to control / dominate their opponent by taking them down and keeping them down.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Silvergriffon]

Unless they change armor to provide DR instead of AC, STR will remain the most logical choice to add to the attack roll in the context of D&D. I had really hoped that Mike Mearls would have been able to insert his excellent Iron Heroes variable DR rules for armor. Then they could have taken the further step of using Dex for Accuracy and Strength for damage/penetration.

 

[Nifft]

Unless they change armor to provide DR instead of AC, STR will remain the most logical choice to add to the attack roll in the context of D&D.

Yes. If armor = AC, then strength = attack.

Also, Dexterity is enough of a god-stat in 3.5e. Dex and Con are the only two stats important to every PC -- not that every PC needs a large bonus, but to which no-one would accept a penalty.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Cadfan]

Here's something I don't understand, largely because I completely lack useful information.

If a Paladin's smite can use Wisdom or Charisma as its bonus to hit, that implies to me that it is using Wisdom or Charisma instead of Strength. That seemed to me to be how things were written. Now, I assume a Paladin's regular attacks require Strength.

This creates a stat spread problem on the Paladin's most important statistic- his attack statistic.

Now this is only a problem if other comparable classes haven't got the same issues. But will Fighters be attacking using mental stats?

One way to fix this would be to make generic attacks not based off of any stat bonus, and then to make special maneuvers base off whatever is most logical.

I doubt they will do this. There may be other ways to fix this, or they might balance the classes in other ways, or stat spread may be less of a concern in a game where ability score boosts are mostly removed. But its something I've wondered about.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

When I moved to an Armor as DR system and cleaned up math I dumped adding modifiers to the Attack Bonus, and left strength applying to damage only. I don't use Dex because after dealing with the Storyteller system I've grown to despise the DEX is God paradigm it plays to.

 

[Will]

It's always impressed me how fast and powerfully a strong person can attack vs. a weaker/smaller one (and Str at least partially suggests overall size).

Think of a thrusting sword and a lunge from a huge muscular guy and a thin wiry guy. The muscular guy's lunge is powerful, likely to bite through armor, hard to block, and so on. The wiry guy's lunge is probably faster, but more likely to skitter off armor, easier to block, etc.


Now, ideally, I think I'd have weapon speed modified by Dex shape how many attacks you get a round or otherwise have dexterity matter in combat, just not in the attack roll.