Streamlining 3e

[Nathan P. Mahney]

Like many here I'm coming to the conclusion that 3e, even when restricted to the core books, is much too complicated as written for me to enjoy DMing it. It's a *great* game for players who like delving into the rules, but it has a few too many fiddly bits for more casual gamers, and it feels like a burden for me to keep track of as the DM.

Nevertheless, I love the core principles of 3e, and I want to stick with it - in a streamlined form. I'm aware of OSRIC and Basic Fantasy, but they're more concerned with making 3e more like AD&D/Basic D&D - I want 3e to remain 3e at its core. I'm also aware of Castles and Crusades, but again it's a bit more different than I want and a little *too* simplified.

So I'm going to try and houserule my own version of 3e, one that streamlines things down into a form that I can more easily manage and remember at the game table. To that end I'm going through the SRD and tweaking things here and there, simplifying in places and trying to return a bit of 1e flavour here and there. I'll be popping in here occasionally to ask some questions and raise some issues.

The first problem that I'm tackling is Stacking. Tracking all those bonuses is more than my tiny mind can bear. The simplest solution would be to let everything stack, but my tastes run to a more low-powered game, so that's out.

Another thought I had was to limit each enhanceable score to one spell and one item at a time - so your Strength could be enhanced by one item (i.e. a Girdle of Giant Strength) and one spell (like Bull's Strength), but a second one of either would be ineffective. There would be exceptions for certain items like the tomes that permanently enhance scores, etc. The obvious problem here is Armor Class - magic armour and shields need to work in conjunction, for instance. What are people's opinions here - is it a workable solution? Has anyone come up with a different solution?

 

[Henry]

Perhaps the best idea would be to first examine some of the attempts others have done at the exact same thing:

Microlite 20?

True20?

Castles & Crusades?

Basic Fantasy Role Playing?

 

[Nathan P. Mahney]

I've looked at Microlite and Basic Fantasy, but neither do what I'm after. Castles & Crusades doesn't look like it either, and also requires that I spend money. Imminent wedding = not possible! The same holds for True20, which I assume is not free. I've reached the conclusion that the only way for me to get a version of D&D I'm happy with is to roll up the sleeves and make it myself!

 

[DonTadow]

Like many here I'm coming to the conclusion that 3e, even when restricted to the core books, is much too complicated as written for me to enjoy DMing it. It's a *great* game for players who like delving into the rules, but it has a few too many fiddly bits for more casual gamers, and it feels like a burden for me to keep track of as the DM.

Nevertheless, I love the core principles of 3e, and I want to stick with it - in a streamlined form. I'm aware of OSRIC and Basic Fantasy, but they're more concerned with making 3e more like AD&D/Basic D&D - I want 3e to remain 3e at its core. I'm also aware of Castles and Crusades, but again it's a bit more different than I want and a little *too* simplified.

So I'm going to try and houserule my own version of 3e, one that streamlines things down into a form that I can more easily manage and remember at the game table. To that end I'm going through the SRD and tweaking things here and there, simplifying in places and trying to return a bit of 1e flavour here and there. I'll be popping in here occasionally to ask some questions and raise some issues.

The first problem that I'm tackling is Stacking. Tracking all those bonuses is more than my tiny mind can bear. The simplest solution would be to let everything stack, but my tastes run to a more low-powered game, so that's out.

Another thought I had was to limit each enhanceable score to one spell and one item at a time - so your Strength could be enhanced by one item (i.e. a Girdle of Giant Strength) and one spell (like Bull's Strength), but a second one of either would be ineffective. There would be exceptions for certain items like the tomes that permanently enhance scores, etc. The obvious problem here is Armor Class - magic armour and shields need to work in conjunction, for instance. What are people's opinions here - is it a workable solution? Has anyone come up with a different solution?

I find it best not to recreate the wheel. The true 20 system really simplifies a lot of stuff in d20. Its my favorite rules light system.

 

[Henry]

Rolling up sleeves, then...

The first problem that I'm tackling is Stacking. Tracking all those bonuses is more than my tiny mind can bear. The simplest solution would be to let everything stack, but my tastes run to a more low-powered game, so that's out.

One solution would be to look hard at stacking, and start "grouping" the stacking, so that certain things won't stack with one another. For example, you could decide that all Enhancement and Inherent bonuses don't stack with one another, and all circumstance, morale, and competence bonuses don't stack with one another. Then, you've reduced the amount of work in renaming bonuses all over, and made the players concentrate all their stacking in one or two places.

Another thought I had was to limit each enhanceable score to one spell and one item at a time - so your Strength could be enhanced by one item (i.e. a Girdle of Giant Strength) and one spell (like Bull's Strength), but a second one of either would be ineffective. There would be exceptions for certain items like the tomes that permanently enhance scores, etc. The obvious problem here is Armor Class - magic armour and shields need to work in conjunction, for instance. What are people's opinions here - is it a workable solution? Has anyone come up with a different solution?

The bad news there is that some of the most powerful boosting items in the game are all enhancement bonuses, and 75% of the spell boosts are enhancements. Would this "enhanceable score thing also apply to attack bonus? If so, all you've got are STR or DEX, and the weapon bonus. No weapon focus, power attack, etc.

One solution, but no palateable to some, would be to limit level raises -- say, reduce the XP and challenges so that the max you can get in a campaign is 10th level. This also keeps bonuses in a more reasonably calculable neighborhood, and one that Wulf Ratbane had a big discussion on a while back (called "preserving the sweet spot in D&D" in the message headers). His idea was basically taking the bonuses from 1st through 10th level and spreading it out over 20 levels, but such an undertaking would be a huge one, in my opinion.

 

[greywulf]

Rolling up your sleeves is good

Welcome to the Campaign For Minimal Rules (CaFMR), Nathan. It's good to see folks wanting simplicity in their gaming.

When it came to stacking, in Microlite20 I just decided to not worry about it at all, taking the most minimal of all possible solutions. That, after all, was the goal behind the game. I decided to trust the DM to Do The Right Thing at the time, something that seems to be anathema to current D&D mentality. But ah, well.

IMO, I think that the way stacking works in D&D is one of the best ideas in the game. It's simply explained, and easy to implement - just what a good rule should be. There's plenty of other stuff I'd toss out (and have!) before looking at this.

So saying, your suggestion of just allowing one bonus to apply (plus situational modifiers, of course) is a workable substitute. It's the exceptions to the rule that might cause the headaches. AC would be the biggest exception, as you point out. Armour, shield, natural armour and spells would need some common sense applying, but that's nothing a good DM can't handle.

Eliminating stacking won't make much of a difference at low levels, where the characters are lucky to have one bonus (heh. Mean DM!), but at higher levels when the characters might have multiple spell effects, magical weaponry plus bonuses from clothing, gauntlets, rings, etc, you may end up having to make most judgement calls without stacking than you will with it in place.

Just a thought!

 

[Yair]

I've looked at Microlite and Basic Fantasy, but neither do what I'm after. Castles & Crusades doesn't look like it either, and also requires that I spend money. Imminent wedding = not possible! The same holds for True20, which I assume is not free. I've reached the conclusion that the only way for me to get a version of D&D I'm happy with is to roll up the sleeves and make it myself!

I do think True20 sounds like what you're looking for. You could look at the quickstart rules, and see how it works in practice with the free accompanying Death in Freeport adventure. I can understand not wanting to spend money on something you may not like, but these should give you a pretty good idea how the thing works for free. If that seems to be what you want, the True20 pdf is just 17.50$, and the (print) pocket player's guide just 14.95$! Can't you afford even that for a system you know works well for you? If you can't spend 15$, even for a system that seems to fit your criteria, go house-ruling. Otherwise - I'd recommend looking at other successful solutions for the same issues rather than inventing the wheel all over again.

 

[hong]

I do think True20 sounds like what you're looking for. You could look at the quickstart rules, and see how it works in practice with the free accompanying Death in Freeport adventure. I can understand not wanting to spend money on something you may not like, but these should give you a pretty good idea how the thing works for free. If that seems to be what you want, the True20 pdf is just 17.50$, and the (print) pocket player's guide just 14.95$! Can't you afford even that for a system you know works well for you? If you can't spend 15$, even for a system that seems to fit your criteria, go house-ruling. Otherwise - I'd recommend looking at other successful solutions for the same issues rather than inventing the wheel all over again.

People, people. Nathan is indulging his gearhead gene. It's very impolite to suggest to a gearhead that he use someone else's stuff. You wouldn't tell a DIY enthusiast that you can just buy it from IKEA, would you?

 

[Nathan P. Mahney]

Rolling up sleeves, then...

One solution would be to look hard at stacking, and start "grouping" the stacking, so that certain things won't stack with one another. For example, you could decide that all Enhancement and Inherent bonuses don't stack with one another, and all circumstance, morale, and competence bonuses don't stack with one another. Then, you've reduced the amount of work in renaming bonuses all over, and made the players concentrate all their stacking in one or two places.

Certainly reducing the number of bonus types is an option. The main reason I'm targeting stacking is just the nature of my gaming group - we play once a month if we're lucky, and none of us can be bothered to keep track of all this stuff. I'm starting to think that letting everything stack (barring things from the same source, like 2 bless spells) might be the best option, but I know I've got at least one player who would abuse that.

The bad news there is that some of the most powerful boosting items in the game are all enhancement bonuses, and 75% of the spell boosts are enhancements. Would this "enhanceable score thing also apply to attack bonus? If so, all you've got are STR or DEX, and the weapon bonus. No weapon focus, power attack, etc.

The main thing I was thinking of with the proposed method was making buffs easier to adjudicate. Bonuses from feats and race and class and skills would apply as normal. It's easier for me to remember whether a character already has a spell buffing his attack roll than it is to remember the bonus types. I'm wondering how this might affect other parts of the game, though - I've noticed that people here are better at anticipating these things than I!

One solution, but no palateable to some, would be to limit level raises -- say, reduce the XP and challenges so that the max you can get in a campaign is 10th level. This also keeps bonuses in a more reasonably calculable neighborhood, and one that Wulf Ratbane had a big discussion on a while back (called "preserving the sweet spot in D&D" in the message headers). His idea was basically taking the bonuses from 1st through 10th level and spreading it out over 20 levels, but such an undertaking would be a huge one, in my opinion.

Ah, this is an idea I'll be tackling later when I want to tinker with slowing advancement.

 

[DonTadow]

People, people. Nathan is indulging his gearhead gene. It's very impolite to suggest to a gearhead that he use someone else's stuff. You wouldn't tell a DIY enthusiast that you can just buy it from IKEA, would you?

There's a difference. There's only so many mechanics you can reduce when streamlining, unlike the many different kinds of cabinets you can make. By true 20, you' will at least know its balanced.