D&D 5E Strip Background out of subclass

Classes and Subclasses should have

  • backgrounds removed as much as possible

    Votes: 29 56.9%
  • backgrounds in them

    Votes: 14 27.5%
  • I dont care, explain

    Votes: 8 15.7%

variant

Adventurer
Nothing about either requires training or being a veteran. Plenty of gladiators die in the arena long before they became veterans.

A knight has to prove himself to be knighted or go through a squireship. Someone isn't really a gladiator if he can't actually survive in the arena. He might be a slave, but not a gladiator. Gladiators went through intensive training before they ever stepped into the arena. If he survived even one fight, he isn't 0-level. The only time an untrained person would ever be thrown in the arena is if they had previous training, natural skill, or as fodder for a gladiator. The former two would be represented by levels, and latter would be some untrained slave.

This is just it, the background should be where the campaign setting hits the ground. It should not be the class or the subclass.

A background is your history before you became trained or became an adventurer. It is not a specialization. A ninja is someone that has become extensively trained to become a ninja and there is no way that can truly be represented in a simple background. Someone might have been a nina's apprentice, but no way would someone be a trained ninja and be 0-level.
 
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Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
For instance a samurai, a wugen, a ninja all should be backgrounds not subclasses. A samurai might be a fighter/warrior, a wugen might be a wizard/warlock, a ninja might be a rogue/assassin

This misses the virtue of backgrounds to me -- all of these examples are too directly relevant to the class choice. Unless you a druid ninja or a barbarian ninja as equally viable, then "ninja" isn't a background -- it's a subclass, or a label attached to a subclass.
 

Weather Report

Banned
Banned
For instance a samurai, a wugen, a ninja all should be backgrounds not subclasses.

I can see what you mean as Samurai is a social status, Ninja are part of a clan, but I could see those two being the sort of subclasses you would see in a OA type product.

Fighter (Samurai).
Rogue (Ninja).
Mage (Wu-Jen).
Cleric (Shukenja).
 

Pickles JG

First Post
My initial reaction was that I did not like backgrounds tied in especially for rangers.
However with the tinkering rules for sub classes mentioned I do not care.

I think it allows stronger archetypes to be written if they are tied in like the Samurai fighter or Ninja Rogue. I you want something less obvious you can tinker.
Knight should probably be with Paladin as a default though :)
 

steenan

Adventurer
For me, two approaches are acceptable: either tying subclasses strongly to in-fiction roles and archetypes, with mechanics that support it, or moving the fictional side entirely from subclasses to backgrounds and leaving subclasses as purely mechanical constructs.

What I don't like is mixing them: giving subclasses names meaningful in fiction, giving them story elements, but at the same time using them as silos for mechanics that have little to do with the fictional role.

But I'm afraid this fight is already lost. There is too much historical baggage and tradition of inconsistency in D&D.

If the developers tried to give classes/subclasses strong story roles, people would protest against the restrictions and loss of flexibility ("they left no place for my character concept!"). If they tried to make classes/subclasses fully abstract and mechanical, it would be called anti-immersive and boardgamy. Either way, they lose a significant number of customers.
 

Weather Report

Banned
Banned
For me, two approaches are acceptable: either tying subclasses strongly to in-fiction roles and archetypes, with mechanics that support it, or moving the fictional side entirely from subclasses to backgrounds and leaving subclasses as purely mechanical constructs.

What I don't like is mixing them: giving subclasses names meaningful in fiction, giving them story elements, but at the same time using them as silos for mechanics that have little to do with the fictional role.


Yes, that's the fine line, and subclass bloat, as we had with PrCs (Golden Servant of the Vengeful Flame, etc).
 

Li Shenron

Legend
So back in the day prior to subclasses I started a thread entitled strip background out of class. I think this is just as relevant today, though I think stripping background out of subclass is the important one now. This has been hit before in threads but I think it needs to be called out in its own thread.

So, backgrounds are an excellent addition to the game, you can be all kinds of backgrounds that add a layer to your character that I think is very cool. With the advent of subclasses though some of the background stuff is being sucked back into the subclasses. I would like sublasses to be independent of setting and more focused on the how than the why. Then let the backgrounds subsume the why. A couple of examples: the knight, this should be renamed to something else, knight should be a background and have nothing to do with a subclass. Call it the defender or anything else sufficiently generic. Now for casters I think this is a little different the how you get your magic (domain, pact, bloodline, study) should be your subclass, then you can apply a background that is of your devising.

So who agrees with this approach?

I have no idea... One year ago Backgrounds were a major part of 5e, we had this Race+Class+Background+Specialty setup and I think it was fine, a lot of people liked this structure. There has always been discussion on what Background means in narrative terms, WotC designers intended it mostly as "what you were before picking up the adventuring life", personally I preferred the "what you are when not adventuring (and how you make your living)" (which IMO fit very well with the mechanic), but both basically represent you role in society. However there were people wanting race or type of society (most commonly barbarian) to be represented by Background, so that some backgrounds would represent your whole society of origin instead of your role in it.

Either way, currently Backgrounds are very-slightly less important than before when skills were mandatory and Backgrounds were the main source of skills. Lores are mandatory but IMHO they tend to be ignored by some players, at least in the sense that tends to be used less proactively than physical skills. Proficiencies are more interesting, but you really get very few from Backgrounds.

IMHO the real reason for introducing backgrounds into the game was not really because the game needed a mechanic to represent your "life before adventuring" or "life when not adventuring". Narratively, it could always be done by those who wish, no rules needed, and only a few players really need mechanical benefits (don't get mislead by how many people say they love Backgrounds with mechanical benefits... of course almost all of us like such system once you have it, but before we had it only a minority of groups even thought they needed one). Instead, IMHO the Backgrounds were introduced mostly as a "delivery mechanic for skills" to allow more freedom in character creation (because unlike 3e it wasn't hard to get skills unusual for your class), inluding some options for "slight multiclassing" (e.g. nobody's playing a Rogue so I'll be a Fighter or Wizard or else with Thief background and I can disable traps).

Now they are a "delivery mechanic for lores and non-weapon proficiencies" but class also gives them, while OTOH subclasses have become one of the most important delivery method for both narrative and mechanical features, and also to dial character complexity... I think the problem you're pointing out is very real, but I am afraid it's starting to be late for re-thinking everything again. Overall, the edition is steered by wanting to be as inclusive as possible, so we have different cases of methods which overlap in terms of what they represent narratively and what they deliver mechanically...
 

Weather Report

Banned
Banned
I can see some 4th Ed classes being perfect subclasses: Avenger (un-armoured Paladin on speed), Battlemind (psionic Fighter), Warden (shifting ranger), etc.
 

Remathilis

Legend
A knight has to prove himself to be knighted or go through a squireship. Someone isn't really a gladiator if he can't actually survive in the arena. He might be a slave, but not a gladiator. Gladiators went through intensive training before they ever stepped into the arena. If he survived even one fight, he isn't 0-level. The only time an untrained person would ever be thrown in the arena is if they had previous training, natural skill, or as fodder for a gladiator. The former two would be represented by levels, and latter would be some untrained slave.
A background is your history before you became trained or became an adventurer. It is not a specialization. A ninja is someone that has become extensively trained to become a ninja and there is no way that can truly be represented in a simple background. Someone might have been a nina's apprentice, but no way would someone be a trained ninja and be 0-level.

Isn't it a good thing you don't pick your subclass until 3rd level, after having survived 1st and 2nd level as a squire, slave, prospective ninja, arcane initiate, altar boy of Zeus, or other "noob"?
 

Remathilis

Legend
If the developers tried to give classes/subclasses strong story roles, people would protest against the restrictions and loss of flexibility ("they left no place for my character concept!"). If they tried to make classes/subclasses fully abstract and mechanical, it would be called anti-immersive and boardgamy. Either way, they lose a significant number of customers.

This is the biggest problem with designing a class-based game.

I remember when Arcana Unearthed/Evolved came out and Monte Cook promised the names were going to be nonsensical in order to make them generic enough to accept any background or role. Unfortunately; that also described the assumptions from most characters as well. Green bond? Magister? Oathsworn? Warmain? These names mean nothing except "particular path of abilities I'm taking" and doesn't feel as descriptive as Druid, Warlock, Paladin, or Fighter does. Different strokes, I guess.

Still, I'd rather have subclasses have some flavor and role in the world than to become the generic compoundword game terms for a set of connected game mechanics.
 

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