Bolares
Hero
He does have a tragic backstory
D&D General Strong, Complex Villains
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
Bolares
Hero
Like the ones who think they are on a crusade to protect the world from bards?
Jacob Lewis
Ye Olde GM
So, the PCs. Nice!
Mort
Legend
THIS more than anything else. ESPECIALLY if the villain takes their stuff.
Heck, IME, most of the time, anyone who takes stuff from the PCs is automatically classified as a villain and is therefore set for righteous smiting.
Bolares
Hero
This is the most true thing someone ever wrote. Ever.
take your players stuff and they will hate the villain forever.
Power, influence, control, immortality, fame, wealth, retribution, sheer madness, passion.
5ed DM guide has some interesting pages on vilains build up.
Motivation is a key element for character in DnD, but not only vilain, PC need it too.
5ed put emphasis on Ideal in the player background, but I think we should add a Motivation(s) Description.
5ed DM guide has some interesting pages on vilains build up.
Motivation is a key element for character in DnD, but not only vilain, PC need it too.
5ed put emphasis on Ideal in the player background, but I think we should add a Motivation(s) Description.
Jacob Lewis
Ye Olde GM
It's a strange community. Some people share ideas while others blast their opinions and criticize others for having one. I chose to share some older sources for inspired reading. Or maybe I am being a villain. Do with it what you will.
Bolares
Hero
I don't think the sharing was the problem. The snark before sharing the links could be read as quite rude, and out of nowhere. Sharing intent in the written language is tough, an sometimes we sound ruder than we intend
This is personal experience talking right here.
Like Thanos or Neegan!
Yora
Legend
One thing about villains in narrative fiction is that we mostly get to see them doing their thing separately from the protagonists, and their paths barely crossing at all until the very end, when we don't question how obsessed they are with each other though they never interacted much.
I don't think that really translates to RPGs where the audience only gets to see the side of the protagonists. Memorable villains are mostly memorable boss fights, but not because of their personality and backstory.
I don't think that really translates to RPGs where the audience only gets to see the side of the protagonists. Memorable villains are mostly memorable boss fights, but not because of their personality and backstory.
Jacob Lewis
Ye Olde GM
Did that come off as snark?? I'm sorry.
But, to be fair, a lot people have. a tendency to find offense where none is intended. So no matter what I write, or how I write it, someone will find reason to take offense because they want to be offended. (Probably not the case here. Just saying.)
Paul Farquhar
Legend
D&D is a story told almost entirely from the viewpoint of the heroes, which means the villain's story is rarely told.
On the upside, since the player's don't expect the know much about the villain, they will never learn if they had an interesting backstory and believable motivation. Or not. "Oh, wow, you have killed Bob, and now you will never learn his tragic backstory or why he was searching for the McGuffin of Doom!"
I think the best way to tell a villain's story in D&D is to have the PCs be the villains.
On the upside, since the player's don't expect the know much about the villain, they will never learn if they had an interesting backstory and believable motivation. Or not. "Oh, wow, you have killed Bob, and now you will never learn his tragic backstory or why he was searching for the McGuffin of Doom!"
I think the best way to tell a villain's story in D&D is to have the PCs be the villains.
Yora
Legend
Burn down the PCs' house and kill a few of their less interesting servants.
Their battle shall be legendary!
Bolares
Hero
I still think they would be more pissed of if you steal their magic item
el-remmen
Moderator Emeritus
I like giving them the same or similar goals as the PCs, it is just the means or what they plan to do with that goal that the PCs may object to - thus leading to dramatic tension regarding if and how to even try and stop the villain.
In my "Out of the Frying Pan" campaign, there were two main "villains" (or villain groups). One was a half-fiend gnome seeking out the legendary interdimensional fortress Hurgun's Maze, which the PCs were also seeking for. They sought it to fix the dangerous planar bleed it was causing in the area. Mozek, the evil gnome, wanted to harness its power to free his demon mommy trapped inside and then start taking over and corrupting people. The other recurring villain was actually a member of the same order as the PC wizard, who was violating their precepts to politically stabilize the region by freeing some evil drow witches who would return to the Underdark undermining unified drow force bound to attack the surface in the quest to return to power. The PCs had to decide if all the terrible things that could happen with these powerful figures free was worth that potential goal. He and the PCs had the same goal of protecting the area - but the rival wizard was willing to let innocents die for a so-called "greater good."
A much more straightforward villain in my "Second Son of a Second Son" was from an adaptation of the Savage Tide AP - the scion of a wealthy family fallen on hard times, who like the PCs was trying to prove his worth in the social circles of the magocracy, but instead of trying to do good (as the PCs were), he was happy to cause chaos so his name and influence (and fear of him) would spread.
In my "Out of the Frying Pan" campaign, there were two main "villains" (or villain groups). One was a half-fiend gnome seeking out the legendary interdimensional fortress Hurgun's Maze, which the PCs were also seeking for. They sought it to fix the dangerous planar bleed it was causing in the area. Mozek, the evil gnome, wanted to harness its power to free his demon mommy trapped inside and then start taking over and corrupting people. The other recurring villain was actually a member of the same order as the PC wizard, who was violating their precepts to politically stabilize the region by freeing some evil drow witches who would return to the Underdark undermining unified drow force bound to attack the surface in the quest to return to power. The PCs had to decide if all the terrible things that could happen with these powerful figures free was worth that potential goal. He and the PCs had the same goal of protecting the area - but the rival wizard was willing to let innocents die for a so-called "greater good."
A much more straightforward villain in my "Second Son of a Second Son" was from an adaptation of the Savage Tide AP - the scion of a wealthy family fallen on hard times, who like the PCs was trying to prove his worth in the social circles of the magocracy, but instead of trying to do good (as the PCs were), he was happy to cause chaos so his name and influence (and fear of him) would spread.
Mort
Legend
One thing that needs to be stressed - and it's been touched on by a few posts already:
It doesn't matter how "interesting," "deep," "awesome," or whatever the villain is if the PCs don't see it.
The true concern for Gaming is to create opportunities for the PCs to see (or better yet experience) the villainy of the villain - hopefully with more than just engaging them in a fight!
Some good ways to accomplish this:
The PCs have something the villain wants - easiest way to engage as the villain finds them.
The PCs and the Villains goals interact - @el-remmen just provided some good examples.
Others?
It doesn't matter how "interesting," "deep," "awesome," or whatever the villain is if the PCs don't see it.
The true concern for Gaming is to create opportunities for the PCs to see (or better yet experience) the villainy of the villain - hopefully with more than just engaging them in a fight!
Some good ways to accomplish this:
The PCs have something the villain wants - easiest way to engage as the villain finds them.
The PCs and the Villains goals interact - @el-remmen just provided some good examples.
Others?
CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing
A good villain should be colorful and detailed, with a unique personality and a deep backstory. It should be fun to play for the DM, too...something that the DM can really step into and enjoy.
But it should also be imminently beatable. The job of a villain is to be defeated and thwarted, time and again, for the sake of the story. Don't get so attached to your darling villains that you can't bear to see them fail (or even die.)
But it should also be imminently beatable. The job of a villain is to be defeated and thwarted, time and again, for the sake of the story. Don't get so attached to your darling villains that you can't bear to see them fail (or even die.)
Mort
Legend
I think that's one of the biggest differences between my villains now and when I was (much younger). I used to go to slightly absurd lengths to not have the villain get caught/die etc. "too quickly."
Now , if they get caught near immediately - sometimes that's the most fun - and great for the players. There are always more challenges/villains.
el-remmen
Moderator Emeritus
This is why I like to sometimes introduce and have the PCs meet the villain before they could reasonably have any chance of beating them - just so they get a taste of their power and if it works out, have the villain defeat and/or ignore them as if they are too beneath their concern to actually kill or worry about. You can't do this too often - but once fairly early on gives the PCs a personal motivation to gain power and take out the villain, in addition to whatever cosmic or geo-political ones.
I know Matt Colville recommends this in one of his videos - but it is an old trick that can really get you a lot of traction until the PCs are ready to actually defeat the villain. The introduction of lieutenants and lackeys to defeat along the way also helps build the animus.
