D&D 5E Struggling adjust encounter level

[WBruce]

I've being playing D&D for more than 30 years now. During all this time never once I played an official adventure. Me and my pals always created everything from scratch, so now after 25 years playing together I though - Hell, why not dive into those pre-made adventures and see what it really is about. So I picked up some of them within FG and I started with Strongholds & Followers, but since it is designed for 5 lvl5 characters I am struggling to adjust encounters to my current party size. Bear in mind I do know how to adjust things, what to tweak here and there, but I was used to do those things on the go, no pre-planning needed.

Now, if I change the damage, the AC, the resistances or a simple change on HP, it's almost impossible to reflect those changes in the CR/XP.

I found this amazing site (CR Calculator - 5etools,) which helps me with that. I also use other two homebrew monster generators ( 1.https://tetra-cube.com/dnd/dnd-statblock.html and 2.https://giffyglyph.com/monstermaker/ ) and so I get by. The only thing is that it takes a lot of time to run all this, than go into FG and remake everything. Sounds Like I am complaining on the burdens of being a DM, I am not. I am just trying to figure out if there is an easy way to adjust encounter levels.

All my players have the same level - I use thresholds so everyone lvls up together.

This is not a big deal - I' ve being using FG for a while now and usually I just do things as I would if I was on a table, I just don't let them see that I am changing things on the go, but I was wondering that for the next adventures - those official pre-made adventures like ToEE, Ywaning Portal and so on, it would be better to try to stick to them as close as I can ( My Strongholds & Followers although a very fun adventure doesn't resemble it for a moment. Aside from the general idea I could not hold on to myself to create so many things around that everything went their own way).

Personal Disclaimer: One of the best things I read in my D&D years was the book The Lazy Dungeon Master - solid work both for newcomers and veterans alike, I consider it to be a hidden gem. So I am down to take the lazy path and make things simple, I just don't know how to make it better. I am looking for a way to streamline the prrocess.

I have 3 players in this adventure, all lvl 5. The encounter is almost 3x harder (using DMG encounter build rules), but if I take out enough monsters (they are just 4 Knights, a cleric, a mage and the main enemy) to adjust the battle I end up with only 2 enemies. What I did is tailor each one of them to make them nerfed. It works, but it's a lot of work, considering everything else.

Can someone share any insights on that?

Thanks

 

[DND_Reborn]

I like this site: donjon; 5e Random Generator

There are other random generators on the site that are useful, such as this one: donjon; 5e Encounter Size Calculator

When I DM for 5E, I use these a lot. I also use Bestiary since I can sort by CR and search for enemies of that CR.

Using these, and with practice, it doesn't take too long IMO.

Another thing is if you find the enemies dropping too quickly, just add more HP until the fight lasts as long as you want. The listed average is just that, the average.

The last thing depends on how strong your PCs and game is. If you have more magic items, etc. the party will stronger than anticipated in 5E.

Anyway, hope it helps.

 

[WBruce]

Thanks for the reply.

I am not really talking about that. My struggle is to adjust encounter levels on official campaigns. I am not looking to create the encounters, even less a random one. So the encounter was already created by someone else, I just need to consider my party size.

Also, within FG I like to have players to know how injured is an enemy. I don't let them see monsters HP, but I like to show the status ( Badly injured, dying) and that is the problem, either I turn that off, what I could do, I just don't want to, or they will notice the enemy surprisingly getting more HP, which could happen once in a while as a healing effect, but not always.

Donjon is amazing by the way, I love the site.

 

[Odysseus]

I believe Michael Shea had an article about this subject on his site, which may help.

My advice don't worry to much about small adjustment to AC ,HP etc. Try and get the total CR of the monsters in a range that works for you and your players.
With 3 PC of level 5. I'd be looking for a total CR of between 5 and 10. 3x CR 3 or 4 xCr2 . And try and adjust the written encounters to that range,or what every range works for you.

 

[NotAYakk]

There are simpler ways to adjust CR than recalculating it.

It does, however, require a bit of math skill and an understanding of how CR is calculated.

The basic idea is that CR is the average of offensive and defensive CR. As you cross below 1 the math gets a bit screwy, so avoid that.

Next, there are some features that multiply HP etc. If a monster lacks those, adjusting defensive or offensive CR can be done by changing its HP in a simple way, or its damage per 3 rounds in a simple way.

I forget the exact constants, but I think it is 12 HP is one defensive CR and 15 damage per 3 rounds is one offensive CR. (this is a bit under the DMG numbers, because the DMG assumed higher HP/Damage means more AC/ATK; if you factor that out you get those numbers).

As you average offence and defence, 24 HP and 30 threat of damage budget over 3 rounds is 1 CR swing.

This will be of limited scope, because numbers of combatants matter a lot in 5e.

There is also the trick that "adding up CR" is 10x easier and 80% as accurate as the 5e XP balancing system.

Between the two you can adjust encounters of the fly with far less effort.

Second order effects include adjusting sub-1 CR to 1/3, 1/2, 2/3 instead of 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 for sum up CR balancing.

So if you have a sum-of-CR of 10 for a 5 person party, the new budget is 6 for a 3 person party. If it was an 8 and 3 1/2 CR monsters, you might trim 3 CR off the 8 and cut one CR 1/2.

To trim off 3 CR, we reduce HP by
48 and damage over 3 rounds by 30, or DPR by 10.

 

[WBruce]

I will try to find Shea saying on that.

The issue remains, how do I take a final battle with 8 enemies and make it a 3xCR3 or 4xCR2.

The actual situation:

The Siege of Castle Rend final encounter, the boss Batlle is designed for 5 lvl 5 characters. I have only 3.

The Encounter - 4 Knights (CR3), 1 Priest (CR2), 1 Archer (CR3), 1 Mage (CR6), and the boss (CR5).

If I make this a fight with only 3 enemies I feel I am hurting the Official Adventure, because it makes perfect sense for this particular adventure that the boss will be at least same level as the players, would have Knights as guards, would also have 1 priest and 1 mage, and possibly employ an Archer. The last one can be risked out, although it would be smart for a soldier that commands a fort with many man to employ some ranged specialist, we can get by with the others.

My first attempt was to reduce the number of enemies - at the end I had only 2 of them.
My second attempt was to nerf the Knights - even making them a CR 1 wouldn't work.
My third attempt was to split it into two encounters and nerf everyone but the boss which would come alone in a third encounter.

The thing is although I can make it it work, there should be an easier way to just downgrade official adventure encounters (specially within Fantasy Grounds), otherwise what is the point of an official adventure? I mean it. If I am gonna have to create everything it would be so different that to make my alterations make sense I would have to justify those changes with a completely different adventure.

One adventure where you face a mage and boss fighter with some knights as his "minions" in the end battle is way different as one that you face 3x Knights (3xCR3).

That is problem 1 - I don't like my tools to overcome it but I can manage.

Problem 2 is to make that in FG in a way it still feels as the same official campaign, otherwise I can go back to tailor everything myself, right? Imean if I choose to put some Hobgoblins instead of the Mage and some Orcs instead of the Knights, I am better off creating everything myself, and I can't find a way to give the feeling that they are facing a boss, a man who command others in battle with only 3 enemies or making the Knights Minions - what an horrible commander he should be to command mans that dies with 1 damage! ( I love minions - just not in this kind of situation)

Anyway, I am not even sure I can make any sense. I hope I had communicated myself properly.

 

[WBruce]

@ NotAYakk

Yeah...that's exactly my approach. The only thing is that to do that for every encounter and to put all that into FG, adjusting every single monster is a pain! I am starting to reconsider this idea of getting into the Official adventures, at least in 5e.

If I recall correctly, in 4e we could change a monster CR really easy. There was even apps that would auto-adjust their stats and you could just increase or decrease the CR by the amount of numbers you would like. that was easy, That made sense for official adventures if you ask me.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You can just eyeball it based on experience too. With 3 PCs, that is a whole pile of NPCs and will likely be a problem. I'd eliminate the archer, the priest, and turn the knights into come kind of CR1/4 or CR1/2 melee combatant.

@ NotAYakk

Yeah...that's exactly my approach. The only thing is that to do that for every encounter and to put all that into FG, adjusting every single monster is a pain! I am starting to reconsider this idea of getting into the Official adventures, at least in 5e.

If I recall correctly, in 4e we could change a monster CR really easy. There was even apps that would auto-adjust their stats and you could just increase or decrease the CR by the amount of numbers you would like. that was easy, That made sense for official adventures if you ask me.

Yes, 4E was incredible for that, particularly with the DDI. 5E doesn't have the same sort of formulas so I don't think it can do that, sadly.

 

[Odysseus]

I will try to find Shea saying on that.

The issue remains, how do I take a final battle with 8 enemies and make it a 3xCR3 or 4xCR2.

The actual situation:

The Siege of Castle Rend final encounter, the boss Batlle is designed for 5 lvl 5 characters. I have only 3.

The Encounter - 4 Knights (CR3), 1 Priest (CR2), 1 Archer (CR3), 1 Mage (CR6), and the boss (CR5).

I would go with dropping the mage,archer and a knight. Which would give you a total CR 16 ,which is a tough encounter. And still give you 5 monsters.
Looking at the style of problem your dealing with , try reskining a lower CR monster to replace the ones your using. Change the knights to bandits captains. The archer to a scout and the mage to am apprentice etc. And fiddle with the AC or hit points slightly.
Or as someone said add some NPC

 

[Flamestrike]

I will try to find Shea saying on that.

The issue remains, how do I take a final battle with 8 enemies and make it a 3xCR3 or 4xCR2.

The actual situation:

The Siege of Castle Rend final encounter, the boss Batlle is designed for 5 lvl 5 characters. I have only 3.

The Encounter - 4 Knights (CR3), 1 Priest (CR2), 1 Archer (CR3), 1 Mage (CR6), and the boss (CR5).

Change the 4 Knights and 1 Archer to 4 x Guards (replace Spears and Chain shirt with Chainmail, Shield and Sword, increase Strength to 16, change AC to 18, replace attack with Sword +5 [1d8+3]) Give them multi-attack with those swords (2 attacks). Increase CR to 1/2.

Being significantly lower in CR than the parties level, they dont multiply the final XP modifier on account of numbers. Their role is the battle is basic Mooks.

Then you're left with the Mage, Priest and the Boss.

Replace the Mages Spellcasting trait with:

Spellcasting. The mage is a 4th-level spellcaster. Its spellcasting ability is Intelligence (spell save DC 13, +5 to hit with spell attacks). The mage has the following wizard spells prepared:

Cantrips (at will): fire bolt, light, mage hand, prestidigitation

1st level (4 slots): detect magic, mage armor, magic missile, shield

2nd level (3 slots): misty step, mirror image, ray of enfeeblement

Reduce his HP to 30, his CR to 2, and reduce Saves and Skill bonuses by 1. He now has no area affect spells likely to take the whole party down in one hit.

Replace the Priest with a Cult Fanatic. Change armor to Half plate and Shield (AC 19), give a Mace instead of a Dagger, increase Strength and Wisdom to 16. Replace Action with: Mace (AC 19) +5 hit, 1d8+3 damage. Replace Shield of Faith with Bless and inflict wounds with cure wounds (Save DC 13, +5 to hit with spell attacks)

You now have 4 x CR 1/2 Mooks, plus 1 x caster (priest) who specialises in buffing the Mooks with Bless, and then spamming Spiritual weapon and melee-ing (or healing the Boss with Cure wounds) and 1 x Caster that spams magic missiles, and debuffs with rays of enfeeblement and hold persons.

They're all swinging/ casting at +5 to hit (easy to remember) with the mooks with 10 or so HP and the Casters with 30 each. Save DC vs spells is 13 across the board.

From there, you just need to work on the Boss a bit. What stats are you using for him?