Stun/Paralysis effects

[WarlockLord]

Looking at the info for the new mind flayer, I was immediately struck by the nerf of the blast. It has dropped from stun to daze. Then, as someone posted from the minis rules, dazing doesn't actually force you to lose actions. :\

I find the 4e philosophy of "do something every turn"...bad. The death of paralysis and stun effects so that characters can always take actions reminds me unpleasantly of the Dodo from Alice in Wonderland, declaring that all have won and all must be rewarded. I cannot help but wonder why the "unfun" event of, God forbid, losing turns needs to be removed. Even in Candyland you can land on the dot squares and be prevented from moving. In Monopoly, you go to Jail. Yet Monopoly is a pretty popular game, for all the turn-losing foulness. I realize it is not fun to lose turns. Then again...if you don't want bad things to happen to your PCs, why are they headed into battle in the first place?

I also cannot help but wonder why save-or-dies were removed, but resurrection stayed. Rezzing is one of the most artificial aspects of the game, and I would be glad to seen it gone or turned into an Orphean quest.

Thoughts?

 

[FireLance]

I find the 4e philosophy of "do something every turn"...bad. The death of paralysis and stun effects so that characters can always take actions reminds me unpleasantly of the Dodo from Alice in Wonderland, declaring that all have won and all must be rewarded. I cannot help but wonder why the "unfun" event of, God forbid, losing turns needs to be removed. Even in Candyland you can land on the dot squares and be prevented from moving. In Monopoly, you go to Jail. Yet Monopoly is a pretty popular game, for all the turn-losing foulness.

I've never played Candyland, but the loss of "turns" in Monopoly is mitigated by a few factors:

1. You still get to roll the dice on your turn, and the result of the roll does have an effect on the game. If you roll doubles, for example, you are allowed to leave Jail.

2. You still get to act in other ways even though your token is in Jail. For example, you can collect rents when other tokens land on your properties.

3. If you have a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card or enough money, you have the option to use it or retain it and roll. This adds a small tactical element to the game even when you are in Jail.

4. You are seldom in Jail for long. Normally, you can spend a maximum of three turns in Jail.

3e stun or paralysis had few of these mitigating factors. Paralysis allowed purely mental actions, but not every character had access to these. Hold person allowed a saving throw every round, but not all effects that caused stunning or paralysis allowed it. Stunning Fist normally lasts only a round, but many other stun or paralysis effects had a longer duration.

I realize it is not fun to lose turns. Then again...if you don't want bad things to happen to your PCs, why are they headed into battle in the first place?

To show off their cool abilities, of course.

Seriously, though, I don't mind bad things happening to my PCs, but I would prefer to avoid long stretches of time in which I don't have anything significant to do. If I were to rework stun and paralysis for 4e, I'd do the following:

1. Keep the durations short, generally to not more than a few rounds, and ensure that the stun or paralysis ability cannot be used repeatedly. It should be an advantage, not a party killer.

2. Give all characters a chance to act or remove the effect each round, e.g. a saving throw or recovery roll to shrug off the effects.

3. Give all characters the option to spend a limited resource to act or remove the effect on their turn, e.g. with a second wind attempt or an action point.

 

[Hella_Tellah]

It's a good thing Wizards is trying to avoid situations where the player can do nothing for a number of turns. In the game I ran a few days ago, I saw this first hand: one player was panicked by a ghost for 7 rounds, and another was hit with hold person for 6 rounds. The panicked player had absolutely no recourse, so she grabbed her knitting and stepped away from the table for a while. The player who was hit by hold person stayed and was very engaged with the way the battle went, just because he was rolling (and failing) a will save every round.

Daze doesn't need to allow actions each round, necessarily, but it would be nice if these effects all allowed a chance to mitigate the effects each round. It's fine if the character has nothing to do for a few rounds, but when the player sits out for half an hour, it's a problem.

 

[Agamon]

I realize it is not fun to lose turns. Then again...if you don't want bad things to happen to your PCs, why are they headed into battle in the first place?

There is a difference between "bad things happening" and being a player and sitting around for an hour or longer twiddling your thumbs, something that happened tonight in my game. It's the difference between something happening to you that's not fun and nearly the entire game night being not fun. I think this is a good move.

 

[Dausuul]

It's a good thing Wizards is trying to avoid situations where the player can do nothing for a number of turns. In the game I ran a few days ago, I saw this first hand: one player was panicked by a ghost for 7 rounds, and another was hit with hold person for 6 rounds. The panicked player had absolutely no recourse, so she grabbed her knitting and stepped away from the table for a while. The player who was hit by hold person stayed and was very engaged with the way the battle went, just because he was rolling (and failing) a will save every round.

Exactly. It's fine for bad things to happen to the PCs. What shouldn't happen to them, at least not often, is boring things. There's plenty of bad stuff you can do to characters without making their players go sit in the corner for half the fight.

 

[frankthedm]

There's plenty of bad stuff you can do to characters without making their players go sit in the corner for half the fight.

Half? Half?! How often to 3E fights last 14 rounds? 3d4 rounds of sit and suck is generally the whole fight.

 

[bgaesop]

The last time I was a player I ran in fear for 7 rounds from a ghost and then when I got back to the fight (took me another 7 rounds due to me running away in basically a straight line) I was scared off for another 8 rounds. That was an hour and a half of me not doing anything and was intensely boring, not to mention me missing out on basically the entire semi-climactic fight.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

There is a difference between "bad things happening" and being a player and sitting around for an hour or longer twiddling your thumbs, something that happened tonight in my game. It's the difference between something happening to you that's not fun and nearly the entire game night being not fun. I think this is a good move.

Bad things should happen to the characters, not to the player.
A bad thing happening to a player is not playing. A bad thing happening to a character is taking damage, having to overcome a nasty poison or what-you-have. The key thing is to have things that are bad for the character, but they shouldn't be bad - in a pure "game" sense - to the player.

Some players might "whine" if their character takes severe damage, loses his favourite magical item/animal companion or if his characters favorite contact is kidnapped/murdered. But that's "okay", from the game point of view. Because he can still do things about it. But if something means he is "out of the game", because he can't do anything but watch, that's bad.

Compare it to another game type: Card Games. It's unfortunate to get a bad hand of cards. But imagine if a bad hand of cards you don't participate in the game at all! (I know there are popular card games that allow for this to happen. But that doesn't mean that if you'd design a new game, you would try to achieve this again.)

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

The blast is AOE, isn't it? So if it was still full stun/paralysis in 4e, where saving throws are reversed, the DM rolling a 20 would be a TPK every time.

The mind flayer still has a Dominate ability that certainly doesn't sound wussy.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Bad things should happen to the characters, not to the player.
A bad thing happening to a player is not playing. A bad thing happening to a character is taking damage, having to overcome a nasty poison or what-you-have. The key thing is to have things that are bad for the character, but they shouldn't be bad - in a pure "game" sense - to the player.

Excellent reasoning.

BTW,

Last night in our second encounter we fight a lich. In round 1 I get paralysed by the liches touch. Fortunately we had a monk (magic blunt weapons? No problem!) so the lich got demolished pretty quickly.

Second encounter we walk into a room and I get possessed by a ghost in round 1. At least I got to hack a few of my friends a little, and thanks to the monk being able to do subdual damage with his fists ended up KOed rather than dead...

As a player, I don't mind bad things happening to my character, but it's not much fun when as a player you lose out on any chance to do stuff.

Cheers