Stupid High Skill Checks and Saves

[hong]

Fusangite put it right. If you want to play low magic fantasy, why are you playing D&D in any incarnation?

It's a known starting point from which to indulge one's gearhead gene, of course.

 

[William drake]

Not all published material is good. But that's a problem with the published material not with the core rules.Because you are buying published material that is not a good fit with your tastes and should select other published material?It's not in my games. PCs are attacked at home, on the road and when staying with NPCs. Again, your problem seems to be that you have purchased some disappointing adventures. That sucks. But I think if you make better use of the ENW reviews system and forums, you can avoid this.Yes. I would. Fortunately, as an ENnies judge this year, I don't think I have found a single sewer in any of the submissions to the Best Adventure category.Yep. Eventually, D&D characters will become tough enough that regular hyenas won't seem to be a threat to them. That's a basic thing about D&D: as characters gain levels, they will be become more powerful. If you don't like that, might I recommend you switch to a game where advancement is slower and less exponential in character. If you want there to always be a chance of a regular wolf killing a PC, you should pick a game system where characters' capacity to survive damage doesn't increase as they adventure more.High level parties just aren't going to be threatened by mundane wolves in D&D. If you want to play a game in which very experienced adventurers could still be killed by a pack of wolves, play Runequest or Call of Cthulu or some other game where a few very unlucky dodge rolls in a row are all it takes for a highly experienced character to die. D&D is a flexible system that can be used for a lot of things but I think that what you want out of it in this respect is beyond its capacity. And that's okay.To everyone? All the time? It seems to me that there are all kinds of conditions under which wolves are not dangerous like in a well-fortified city that can close its gates and all kind of entities to which they are not dangerous like ghosts and dragons. Well, in D&D, there is another set of conditions under which wolves are not dangerous: when they face a high-level party.Huh? What other creatures? Seems to me like the books are full of creatures that are dangerous to high level parties.So don't buy them.Then perhaps you should consider playing Grim Tales or RQ Lankhmar or some game that isn't about that. The products that are suited to your gaming tastes are out there. You just have to choose to purchase them instead ofYou've got perfectly common views. You just appear to insist that D&D be adapted to your views instead of you adapting your purchasing behaviours to what is out there.Yes. Here is the procedure: go to your FLGS and purchase a game that meets your needs; then run it.

Thanks, but as I said. I've never played a pre-packaged game. Was just saying, that those were the things that I saw in them. yes, I mold DnD to my specs, was just asking: why do some of them come set up that way.

And when I was talking about the creatures (wolves) and using the example of how they should always be dangerous, and if not, then every creature will eventually be pushed to the side. I was saying, and thought it was implied, that what if they were just out in a field, alone, or anywhere where they didn't have cover. In that case, I would say that wolves would be dangerous still. But, as you and I agree, DnD doesn't fit that mold. SO yes, I've shaped it as I saw fit. But your advice about core books that do that without the need for me to change the system is good.

Game On

 

[hong]

Yeesh Fungusite, would you mind using paragraphs next time? Good heavens.

 

[William drake]

The problem is, D&D has never really been very good at genre emulation. D&D is, as has been said many times, its own genre and trying to shoe horn it into something it isn't leads to a lot of frustration. D&D has never really been about low magic parties relying on nothing but their mundane weapons. In earlier editions, certain monsters were absolutely invulnerable if you didn't have the right plus on your sword.

I like to point to the paladin for proof of this. The paladin is limited to 10 magic items in 1e and 2e. 4 weapons, a shield, a suit of armor and 4 other goodies. Now, this is a very strict limitation and is called out very specifically in the rules. If a paly goes over this limit, he becomes a fighter. It's that strong.

Think of the implications of that for a second. That means that the assumption is that everyone else in the party will have MORE than ten magic items. After all, a limitation which no one reaches isn't much of a limit at all. Parties were assumed to be 6 to 8 PC's in 1e, at least judging by the modules. That means that the default assumption is that parties will eventually have 66 to 88 magic items between them. That's a buttload of magic.

Fusangite put it right. If you want to play low magic fantasy, why are you playing D&D in any incarnation?

Well, I play it because it gives me enough info to use it how I want. I like to have the ability to use magic, the amount, and accesability to it as I see fit for the world my players live in. In other systems, some things are simply not there, and you can never put them there. I don't use high magical things much, but when I do, I can use DnD for it.

 

[Destil]

As for spot checks, I completely agree with you but for a different reason. Its not that the pcs have massive spot checks, its that a party tends to get 4 different spot checks vs the one hide check of the hider. With the way the d20 system tends to go, hiders just have a terrible chance under those conditions.

No, they don't have to. The DMG specifically recommends using a single spot roll for the party and adding their bonuses individually in order to determine who sees something, for example... (makes it faster if you're making spot checks for your PCs without their knowledge, which I tend to do a lot myself).

Though, you may be underestimating just how fast spot can go up. My 6th level elf druid made a DC 16 spot roll last session... when I rolled a 1. And I have no magic at all enhancing that yet (9 ranks +4 Wis +2 racial), as our eyes and ears I plan on making some +5 spot / listen item now that I have craft wondrous as well getting a +2 enhancement bonus to Wis....

 

[Hussar]

Well, I play it because it gives me enough info to use it how I want. I like to have the ability to use magic, the amount, and accesability to it as I see fit for the world my players live in. In other systems, some things are simply not there, and you can never put them there. I don't use high magical things much, but when I do, I can use DnD for it.

That's the problem though. Without a lot of reworking, D&D doesn't work all that well for low magic. More than half the classes can cast some magic and 3 of the 12 are pretty much straight up casters with bards not being all that far behind (as well as being considered a caster class by the rules).

Default 3e is fairly low magic item until about 8th level. You shouldn't be seeing much beyond a +1 item or +2 stat boost item until after that. But, even without the magic items, pretty much every problem the party faces will be solved with some magic, even if it's just healing after the fight.

That's about as far from low magic as you can really get.

 

[William drake]

That's the problem though. Without a lot of reworking, D&D doesn't work all that well for low magic. More than half the classes can cast some magic and 3 of the 12 are pretty much straight up casters with bards not being all that far behind (as well as being considered a caster class by the rules).

Default 3e is fairly low magic item until about 8th level. You shouldn't be seeing much beyond a +1 item or +2 stat boost item until after that. But, even without the magic items, pretty much every problem the party faces will be solved with some magic, even if it's just healing after the fight.

That's about as far from low magic as you can really get.

Well, I don't agree. I've recently found the "Wheel of Time" Rpg game book. It's very low magic. If your not a caster, you have no spell like or supernatural abilities. There are no magical itmes, and the few that exist are considered to be artifacts. Everyone is human, and the other playable race is supposed to live outside of humanity, so they are to be background: npc's to talk to.

But, in that book, as the way I've done with myown game. Ive taken the classes with lots of supernatural abilites, or spell like, or w/e and swapped them out for more feats, or skills that make sense. In the "Wheel of Time" they have ranger types that dont have spells, they have feats that make upfor them. They have a monk-type class, without the leap of clouds or the quivering palm. They have extra combat feats that make them badass in game.

In my games, I take out the things that overpower the class, but I also do it with the enemies. It works out pretty well. I ran a game once that lasted 3yrs with these rules, and everyone injoyed the grity feel of it. So, just saying, You can do low magic and do it well.

thanks.

Game on

 

[Stalker0]

Though, you may be underestimating just how fast spot can go up. My 6th level elf druid made a DC 16 spot roll last session... when I rolled a 1. And I have no magic at all enhancing that yet (9 ranks +4 Wis +2 racial), as our eyes and ears I plan on making some +5 spot / listen item now that I have craft wondrous as well getting a +2 enhancement bonus to Wis....

And a rogue would have 9 ranks in hide with a +4 dex bonus, and +3 for distance (30 feet away and still in SA range).

The only time I see the "can't sneak up on the party problem" is at high levels. And there are lots of things about high levels that are different from low levels. High levels is about specialization, the ultimate fighter, the ultimate scout, the ultimate wizard. You can not expect to sneak up on Tom Tom, who can literally detect invisible creatures without magic sometimes, without being the ultimate sneak.

Since this is rare, as a dm you have to make the event very special. If you decide, "hey I'm going to sneak up on my high level party" in this adventure, go all out. Full hide, huge dex, huge items to give hide bonuses, negate blindsight items, whatever. And then go to town on your party. But that was your time, then the next 10 sessions the party sees every guy coming a mile away, its what high level characters do.

 

[VirgilCaine]

And a rogue would have 9 ranks in hide with a +4 dex bonus, and +3 for distance (30 feet away and still in SA range).

Don't forget you can take 20 on Hide checks.

 

[fusangite]

Well, I don't agree. I've recently found the "Wheel of Time" Rpg game book. It's very low magic.

I think it is a mistake to generalize about all non-D&D fantasy games' magic systems on the basis of such a small sample.

There are many models for doing magic out there. I would urge you to explore more over the next few months. RPG books aren't like porn; most stores don't mind a little intense browsing from time to time.