shilsen said:
That's only the style of play if you have a DM who hasn't got a varied enough grasp of the mechanics to challenge the PCs in various ways. There are tons of DMs on this site who are providing such varied challenges at levels in the 10+, 15+, 20+ and higher range.
Maybe in your games. Not so in mine or in those of many DMs here. Firstly, many of the enemies in my game are not sitting waiting in one spot for the PCs to show up, whenever it is they do. And many foes don't level up to keep pace with the PCs. It's easy to challenge PCs with drastically lower level PCs, but again, only if you know the rules well enough to do so.
As mentioned above, all enemies don't need to level up with the PCs. And there's nothing wrong with PCs sometimes fighting much weaker enemies and wiping the floor with them. It gives the players/PCs a sense of accomplshment and character growth. That can be quite worthwhile.
I've been DMing my last Eberron campaigns for 2+ years (PCs going from 3rd to 13th level thus far) and another Eberron campaign somewhat concurrently before that for 2 years (PCs going from 4th to 11th) and in both cases, every time they run into weird stuff there's a reason for its existence where it was. That's not too hard to do.
It's easy to run the game mostly as written (I do, except my PCs are much stronger than using just the core books) and still keep things dangerous and mysterious. And when it comes to not having the PCs walk all over everything, one just needs to create and run their opposition more effectively. The OP's made it clear that's a significant weakness of his, hence the problem.
No, you don't need to tweak the game, or at least not seriously, to continue to challenge most players. And I think players who want their characters to be effective combatants and gain magic items that help them (why wouldn't they, considering their PCs are adventurers, whose lives depend on their effectiveness and equipment?) are the norm. Nothing wrong with that, and it's definitely not something that'll automatically make the game eventually unplayable, as it seems to be for you.
The role of chance in the game never goes away. A character with a +10 can hit an AC 29 without rolling a natural 20 (which lets him hit an AC of infinity) and can miss an AC of 13 without rolling a natural 1 (which lets him miss, however low). I'm not sure what sort of games you've been in, but I've never seen a PC (the highest I've played in 3e is up to 17th lvl) who is so powerful that he can always be sure of success.
What level of play are you speaking of? Just the core rules and the MM itself has creatures that can challenge parties up to 20th lvl and beyond (especially if using classes, templates and HD advancement for creatures). This fabled uber character that you speak of, whom absolutely nothing can challenge or touch doesn't actually exist, IMNSHO.
It's a good thing that you know what works for you but to imply, as you do, that there is no point to other methods of play is a bit silly. Especially since a lot of what you're saying is absolutely part and parcel of the game is just not the case as long as you have a competent DM.
You've missunderstood.
I'm a big fan of using less leveld enemies for the Pc's to fight; I agree that those conflicts can be just as dangerous. And you don't need alot of magic or items to make the foes just as deadly as anything the Pc's have.
But, about the weird stuff. I don't agree. I recently was in my local comic shop and picked up a pre-packedm pre-written game *I dont use them, and the reason for it will be made clear soon.* In this book, there was a sewer level. In it, there were 3 beholders, an albino aligator, dire rats, a few large posinious spiders, alot of traps so on and so on. It was just a sewer, it wasn't someones lair or hideout. To me, that sound abit silly. And, getting back to the point, or maybe its just my opinion, but all those things which seem out of the place, but make sense since they are in the MM, just seem a bit over used.
Why is it always dire rats, and dire insects? Why are their always monsters, why isn't the sewer, and the things in it, based on setting, and background? Why is it always another place to meet the enemy. Yes, I know its a game. But think of it this way, if you were reading a book, and in every sewer there were monsters....wouldn't you wonder why the hero keeps going down there? Also, wouldn't you wonder why the town's people never did anything about the things beneath them?
When I read these things, these suplements they sound like video games. Where everything is a monster, but then again I also laugh when I read that some monsters carry gold. As if they needed it or would really care about it; but, there, like you said, is a reason for it. You have to give the player something for killing the monster.
In my game, and I've DM'ed for a very long time. I don't give players gold when they slay a foe, nor does the enemy vanish into smoke like some of its counterparts do on the Playstation. I tend to make sure that the players start out with jobs, or skills that allow them to earn money. Now, some creatures slain are worth money: their bodies can be broken down and used as magical componets, or they can be sold as exotic foods...or even used into ther producs. I tend to think of monsters like I would animals; they have a reason for being their, and they also may have a use. They arn't just there wandering around waiting to eat someone.
Another thing. I said that I agreed with using numbers. Using low leveled foes to take on the party is fun. However, say I liked a particular creatures. Isn't it true, that without upping its numbers, sometimes to silly levels, the creature becomes useless? I mean, at what level would wolves become silly in the amount that would make them a threat to a high level party? When you have to fight two packs of wolves to make them dangerous, don't you find that silly. I know, yes I know, why is the party still fighting wolves at high levels? That's not point, the point is, that wolves are always dangerous, and if they arn't, then neither are the other creatures, so at a point, they must all be let go. Or is that not your point when you said that the foes didn't have to equal the party in levels/or numbers?
My issue is with the pre-packaged games where they sound silly when reading. But, its also with high high fantasy at times and the almost need for: constant healing, and magical items to best the plot and win the day. I was thumbing through a new FR book, and in it, on the first few pages. There was an army of just everything nasty outside an elven castle. There were demons, and other things in numbers that just made me think that reality should've just collapsed under the weight of it all being in the same place at the same time.
But, then again, I've a different view of fantasy. When my players ge a magial item its like their ring of power, its one of the few, if not the only one in the world. I mean, what would u think of frodo's sword, Sting, if everyone had a glowing orc-alarm system built into it?
Now, you talked about dice, and to-hits. You mentioned a player with a +10 to hit. NOw, lets talk about that.
That's either a very low stat, and illequiped 10th level character, or a high stat wellequiped lower leveled character. Either way, this point will go to both. *And the reason I say illequiped, is because many characters by this time have many magical items which give them bonuses across the board* (I'm not a huge fan of many magical items: one or two per player so that a race to arms doesn't happen on both sides of the gameplay later.*
Moving on.
Ok, so looking at the MM. I found that this player could only miss on a Roll of 10, less then 50 creatures in the entire MM. Ok, so now throw on a keen weapon, some combat feats, and stat points, and some magic items, and that 50% miss is now almost gone. Now for a single player, that wouldn't matter because those creatures would prob dish out enough damage to kill him or atleast make him not really wish to fight them; but we dont play single parties. So, now you have a party of five players, each able to easily hit said foes, and since their are more of them, they do and win. *The party might even have the standard cleric in the group, and enough money so that healing becomes a thing out of finaly fantasy.* Now, to use the creature that was killed by the party again, and not have them so easily slay it, it must be either upped in numbers, or levels. *this is about having the same foes over a long scen: like, going through a swamp, lots of...w/e. Firsts time the party puts it down easily.* Now, you can mess with the terrain, or w/e to change the tatic of the battle, but the numbers are the point. And by giving the party alot of magical times, weapons and so on, you only add the diff later in the game as they move on. Ofcrouse, you can break their itemes, or make them runout or they happen to lose them; but that just makes them upset. IF they dont get them, or only get a few. For good reason. Then that's that.
So, my question is. Is there a way to fix it so that players can't cheat the system. *I know, its a game, its not cheating, you'r supposed to tilt the hand in your favor. Your and adventure; you'r out to collect all the Dragon Balls and Summon the Great Dragon before the fight with the next insain foe which should've destoryed the earth with the amount of atomic energy coming out of his
....bla bla bla.*
Wouldn't the guy who first posted this blog simply fix his probem, and those that might come later by slowing the rate of level growth, and keep alot of magical items out of the game. Or no?
Anways, Game On
